Together Retro: Sonic & Knuckles

[Xeogred]

Nostalgia bomb!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo_4R17gYSY

My favorite song from the game.

Didn't know this was a Together Retro... an easy one sitting so I may join in on this one haha.

@Bone: How much do you suck at these games? An hour and didn't beat it?

[Gunstar Green]

Sky Sanctuary is probably my favorite song.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oNXBpzDp1K8

The Sonic games had some of the best Genesis compositions that weren't strictly rock or techno. Though they had that in spades too.

Flying Battery Act 2 is another contender.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xm2mjHHVM8k

Played S&K for about an hour tonight and then quit. Usually I love the popular and critically-acclaimed games - Mario, Zelda, Final Fantasy, whatever - but I just can't stand this one. The level design, controls, everything about it is just so off-putting. I feel like I'm playing a different game than everyone else.

I feel that way about Donkey Kong Country even though fundamentally they're very similar games.

Also Sonic CD which has level design I can't stand but that one's a little more divisive to start with.

[dogman91]

I can't understand how people are put off to games like this and Donkey Kong Country 2, and prefer games like Sonic 1 & 2. I'd argue those previous games in the series feel "empty" (and more straightforward) in comparison to all the features packed into Sonic 3 & Knuckles. Maybe it's too complex for people?

Also, Mushroom Hill is kind of a frustrating stage to start right off the bat with in regards to the rooster enemies blowing the wind in your face and whatnot. Makes more sense starting off with Angel Island Zone from Sonic 3 locked on to S&K and working your way up, IMO.

[noiseredux]

I never played the DKC sequels other than the Wii one. I liked the first DKC a lot. I like Sonic 1, 2 and CD a lot. I hate Sonic 3 & Knuckles.

[Xeogred]

I can't blame the diversity, it's pretty easy to see a lot of the Sonic's were made by different teams. Sonic 2 seems to be kind of the oddball. Sonic 1 and CD are very similar, and 3 and S&K are pretty much one big game so it their design is very similar. A bit more puzzle/platformer based, for better or worse. Sonic 1 and CD have more vertical/height in their levels which is cool to me.

I love them all so it doesn't really matter for me in the end. Overall, I'd say Sonic 3 is the weakest link. I usually play it when I do S&K, but I don't think it's nearly as good. Lots of annoying levels and the worst of the classic Sonic OST's by a long shot, there's only 2-3 tracks I probably like.

[Gunstar Green]

This is where I usually go, "I can see why someone can like the other games but not this one because..."

But I find myself struggling here. To me it's the apex of the series. It took everything good about the Sonic games (even CD) and amplified it. It's the most polished, the most varied, the best looking and the most fun.

Is it possibly due to franchise fatigue?

I'd really like to hear some specific criticisms just for my own curiosity since I'm too biased to understand what flaws this game has that the others don't.

I love them all so it doesn't really matter for me in the end. Overall, I'd say Sonic 3 is the weakest link.

I agree with that. Sonic 3 on its own is half a game and it certainly feels like half a game to do its length, low difficulty and abrupt ending. S&K may also be half a game but it has the benefit of being the second half so the levels are generally more challenging and the game comes to a solid conclusion.

Sonic 3 does have a really lovely ending theme that you miss out on if you only play it connected with S&K though.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55rtX4wCJPM

I also like the Sonic 3 miniboss music which may or may not contain Michael Jackson samples.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBTAGVnfXAw

And just for the hell of it, everyone's favorite: Ice Cap Zone

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MzK17RaS-k

Which was discovered is actually just a Sega Genesis version of Hard Times by The Jetzons due to Brad Buxer working on both.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VvnsriLZvL0

[Xeogred]

Ice Cap rocked and were good stages. Always liked Hydrocity Zone Act 2 a lot too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPYzgCI6Q1I

Having a hard time saying much good about the levels all around haha.
Angel Island Zone - Least favorite first Sonic levels and it's on fire! Depressing and drab. Predates Gears of War brown!
Hydrocity Zone - Water level that's cool? I dig it.
Marble Garden Zone - Hate it and kind of headache inducing with the weird breaking cliffs thing.
Carnival Night Zone - Balloons everywhere and worst Genesis music ever? What a stepdown from Sonic 2's awesome carnival levels haha.
IceCap Zone - Finally something good again!
Launch Base Zone - Okay.

Sums it up for me.

Sonic CD and S&K are probably my favorites, but they are so radically different it's hard to choose one. I'd probably lean towards Sonic CD though. Also have a soft spot for Sonic 1. I think 1 and CD have the coolest art direction and aesthetic to them, they're just so out there and weird looking in the coolest ways. I also love how it's... SONIC, just plain old Sonic and nobody else. But Knuckles is awesome in S&K, I just dislike how the game is cut way short playing as him.

[noiseredux]

I think my issue is that Sonic 3/Knuckles stages feel more like mazes than linear platformer stages. Just is not fun to me. I get lost and annoyed instead of progressing.

[BoneSnapDeez]

@Bone: How much do you suck at these games? An hour and didn't beat it?

Not sure if joking...? HowLongToBeat puts this at 3 hours. The World of Longplays YouTube vid is 2.5 hours...

In any event, I have beaten it. As recently as last year, in fact.

I think my issue is that Sonic 3/Knuckles stages feel more like mazes than linear platformer stages. Just is not fun to me. I get lost and annoyed instead of progressing.

This is where I'm at.

It's like the game is stuck between genres. It's not a smooth fluid platformer like Super Mario World. Nor is it a full-blown puzzle-platformer like The Lost Vikings. It's like those two games were thrown in a blender and this was the disastrous result.

Or it's like Sega took the level design of a good Sonic game (like Sonic 2) and said "Hey let's clutter up all our levels with stupid arbitrary obstacles and bullshit."

For what it's worth I feel exactly the same about Sonic 3. And Ristar for that matter.

I feel that way about Donkey Kong Country even though fundamentally they're very similar games.

No way!

Those games are "alike" only because they belong to the same genre. The pacing, level design, challenge, and controls are worlds apart. One flows like a stream, the other feels like a traffic jam.

Anyhow, I gave S&K another whirl and was quickly reminded of how much I dislike it. That's it for me, bailing out on day one.

Didn't mean to be a Debbie Downer btw. I appreciate how much the rest of y'all enjoy this.

[ExedExes]

This doesn't bode too well for me, all these negative opinions. I wasn't planning on sinking a whole mess of time into it to begin with, because I just spent a whole month playing Quake, literally every day to get 4 episodes done. I'm a diehard Sonic CD fan inside and out, so I think it's fair to give S&K a try because I got the Sonic Mega & Gems Collections anyway.