Pet peeves regarding video gamers?

[Violent By Design]

The issue is that video game storylines have to conform to certain constraints, namely that the main purpose of each sequence at the end of the day is to set up the context for the next gameplay scenario, be it a new level, dungeon, puzzle, boss battle, etc. When a game does this well, it helps make what you're doing feel a bit more compelling and straight up more fun.

It's a different style than other mediums, but it's no reason to hold it back.

I don't really think it's particularly fair to hold them to the same sorts of standards as say, film or something.

I don't see why not.

Gaming isn't actually a storytelling medium,

Hm, well neither is film then.

I also think that a well done narrative can really add to certain games. I don't think anyone would seriously claim that say, Final Fantasy 6 would be a better game if all the dramatic story bits were replaced with simple "do X and Y" instructions.

This is true, that obviously story gives ambiance to not make it seem like you're just following instructions. However, I do find it strange that a lot of the 16 bit and 32 bit RPGs seem to get passes for being well written, when I've never really played one that was (maybe Chrono Trigger, but I hardly remember it).

I recently played Lunar, and people often say that that game has made them cry before, and to me that is just mindboggling. It could be that perhaps the reason why video game writing isn't that good is because writers will make stories that appeal to the lowest common denominator (elitist view ), and perhaps in those respects it is not much different from film. However, when I want to get away and be immersed into something, it can be quite difficult to find an alternative.

There are plenty of games with alleged great stories that I haven't gotten around too, but it seems like the obvious/most hyped choices are kinda duds to me in the story department. Many turn based rpgs from the 90s fall in this category.

[AppleQueso]

I don't really think it's particularly fair to hold them to the same sorts of standards as say, film or something.

I don't see why not.

Gaming isn't actually a storytelling medium,

Hm, well neither is film then.

In film, in plays, in books, and in any other medium designed entirely to tell stories, the most important question for any decision made is "how will this advance the story?" Everything revolves around how the story is presented to its audience.

Video games aren't required to deal with that question. Instead, the question asked for any decision made is "how will this advance the gameplay?" That always takes priority over narrative, to the extent that narrative is entirely optional.

In the several decades that involved stories have been a part of gaming, there has not been a single game who's narrative has gained any appreciation outside of gaming circles. I'm sorry but I absolutely refuse to believe that it's because all of the writers are just terrible or that every single person just panders to the lowest common denominator. There are certain limitations inherent to the medium.

[Menegrothx]

It could be that perhaps the reason why video game writing isn't that good is because writers will make stories that appeal to the lowest common denominator (elitist view )

There are plenty of games with alleged great stories that I haven't gotten around too, but it seems like the obvious/most hyped choices are kinda duds to me in the story department. Many turn based rpgs from the 90s fall in this category.

Avoid Japanese and console games if you want to see good writing in video games Kind of related to the bolded part, but majority of the well written games I've played have been American PC games, probably because of the reason you just described (they were developed with a smaller, more "nerdy"/smart audience in mind). That's not to say there aren't well written Japanese games (Persona 4 and Xenogears are the ones that come to my mind first, MGS, FFT&TO-games are good too), I guess to some extent the problem is that stuff gets lost in translation.
Just thinking WRPGs alone, Planescape: Torment, Arcanum: Of Steamworks and Magick Obscura, Ultima 5, 6, 7, Fallout 1&2, System Shock 2, Deus Ex, Baldur's gate 2, Anachronox and Vampire: The Masquerade Bloodlines all have good/great writing (though in some games it's the dialogue that's well written while the storyline is mediocre, and vice versa in others). Some are turn based, many have real time with pause, some have real time combat. There's probably a lot more if you venture to older CRPGs, which are turn based, though games were more combat centric back then.

Adventure games are an even better genre if you want to see good writing, as they pretty much thrive on it. The Longest Journey is one of the best written games I've played, though it's the only non humorous adventure game I've played thus far. Speaking of adventure games, Snatcher and Policenauts are examples of Japanese console games with good writing as far as I know (haven't had the chance to play them yet myself).

Have you played Planescape, Longest Journey or Arcanum yet? In some RPGs (both J and W) you really have to play through them from start to finish to really see how good the writing&storyline really are

[Violent By Design]

In film, in plays, in books, and in any other medium designed entirely to tell stories, the most important question for any decision made is "how will this advance the story?" Everything revolves around how the story is presented to its audience.

But film was not always like that, it evolved to the point where it seems like that's how film has to be. Even to this day, there are still movies that do not have traditional stories, or stories that are insanely abstract to the point where the normal individual would not recognize what story is being told.

In the several decades that involved stories have been a part of gaming, there has not been a single game who's narrative has gained any appreciation outside of gaming circles. I'm sorry but I absolutely refuse to believe that it's because all of the writers are just terrible or that every single person just panders to the lowest common denominator. There are certain limitations inherent to the medium.

Well, people outside of gaming circles do not play video games, so why would there be appreciation of it? That comment confuses me a little bit. Video games have only recently even became an acceptable hobby for an adult.

I dont think anyone here has said that all video game writers are terrible. However, you make it seem like video games are an old medium when they're really not. Even more so, storyline being a heavy emphasis in video games, at least on a mainstream level has not been around for along time either. It could be a case that many studios do not see the need to evolve their story telling ways. I think it is changing tbh.

Aside from that, why is it so hard for you to believe that they are just pandering to the lowest common denominator? Objectively speaking, why wouldn't they? People will buy video games regardless if the story is good, even based on your analysis and mine which are different, we can come to that conclusion. Critics have no problems hyping up games that do not have good stories either.

I will say this, I think there are some games that even people who are not big on gaming would appreciate. Don't get me wrong, a game does not have to be "deep" to be written well, nor have plot twist or have lots of text/voice acting. Portal is very straight forward, and it embraces its role as a video game, letting you naturally get through the puzzles on your own.

The story in Portal is not convoluted, nor is it so simplistic that it feels like you are not accomplishing nothing, also the script is well thought out and clever. There are also elements of subliminal in Portal. I genuinely think that people who do not even like video games, can like a game like Portal for reasons other than its excellent puzzles. Not to mention it is paced very well, which I think many video game developers struggle with immensely.

[Violent By Design]

Avoid Japanese and console games if you want to see good writing in video games Kind of related to the bolded part, but majority of the well written games I've played have been American PC games, probably because of the reason you just described (they were developed with a smaller audience in mind). That's not to say there aren't well written Japanese games (Persona 4 and Xenogears are the ones that come to my mind first, MGS, FFT&TO-games are good too), I guess to some extent the problem is that stuff gets lost in translation.

Yes, when I think of games that potentially have good plots, I often think of CRPGS from the 90s. But like I said, those games do not get traditional mainstream recognition. I haven't dived in those myself though.

My comment toward RPGs is basically JRPGs of the 16-32 bit era, in which I really don't think those games are written particularly well, not enough to get high praise at least.

Adventure games is an even better genre if you want to see good writing, as they pretty much thrive on it. The Longest Journey is one of the best written games I've played, though it's the only non humorous adventure game I've played thus far. Speaking of adventure games, Snatcher and Policenauts are examples of Japanese console games with good writing as far as I know (haven't had the chance to play them yet myself)

Indeed. I will say Snatcher is far above its peers in terms of narrative. I was actually thinking about Snatcher the other day, and how much better written it is than other games of the late 80s and early 90s (at least console games of that time).

I think the adventure genres are certainly the go to spot for well written stories. I think the horror survival genre has some neat ideas too, I remember really digging Silent Hill's stories and general ambiance.

[oxymoron]

I don't really think it's particularly fair to hold them to the same sorts of standards as say, film or something. Gaming isn't actually a storytelling medium, the best stories told in games work because they're told in games and work as games,

So you don't think games like TLOU, Heavy Rain, Hitman: Absolution, or Beyond: Two Souls could be made into films? I will agree that in some games the story is only there to make purpose of what you're doing. For instance, fighting games but to say that all stories in video games are just a crutch is irrational.

[AppleQueso]

For some reason VBD I just knew you were going to be the one to contest me on this.

I don't mind though.

But film was not always like that, it evolved to the point where it seems like that's how film has to be. Even to this day, there are still movies that do not have traditional stories, or stories that are insanely abstract to the point where the normal individual would not recognize what story is being told.

Maybe if you're counting the sort of pre-history of film while the technology was being developed. Nobody would consider a basic animated gif nowadays to be "film." Once stories could be told in film, storytelling became the main purpose.

An abstract or nontraditional story is still a story though.

Games have had the ability to tell stories for quite a while now, but many games still don't bother with them. Storytelling simply isn't a primary function of video games.

Well, people outside of gaming circles do not play video games, so why would there be appreciation of it? That comment confuses me a little bit. Video games have only recently even became an acceptable hobby for an adult.

That's true, that occurred to me not long after I posted that.

Aside from that, why is it so hard for you to believe that they are just pandering to the lowest common denominator? Objectively speaking, why wouldn't they? People will buy video games regardless if the story is good, even based on your analysis and mine which are different, we can come to that conclusion. Critics have no problems hyping up games that do not have good stories either.

Most of them? Maybe. All of them? I doubt that.

I will say this, I think there are some games that even people who are not big on gaming would appreciate. Don't get me wrong, a game does not have to be "deep" to be written well, nor have plot twist or have lots of text/voice acting. Portal is very straight forward, and it embraces its role as a video game, letting you naturally get through the puzzles on your own.

The story in Portal is not convoluted, nor is it so simplistic that it feels like you are not accomplishing nothing, also the script is well thought out and clever. There are also elements of subliminal in Portal. I genuinely think that people who do not even like video games, can like a game like Portal for reasons other than its excellent puzzles. Not to mention it is paced very well, which I think many video game developers struggle with immensely.

I think that's using gaming as a medium at its fullest. The story still operates within the confines of a "game story" though. It wouldn't make a good movie, but it makes for a great game, which is sorta the point I'm trying to get at. I think the best game stories use the fact that they're video games to their advantage.

I feel like people tend to want to take game stories in a vacuum and ignore how important it is for the gameplay to be there. I imagine that even the most heralded game stories would probably look and feel extremely awkward or just plain wouldn't work if they weren't being told through a video game.

I don't really think it's particularly fair to hold them to the same sorts of standards as say, film or something. Gaming isn't actually a storytelling medium, the best stories told in games work because they're told in games and work as games,

So you don't think games like TLOU, Heavy Rain, Hitman: Absolution, or Beyond: Two Souls could be made into films? I will agree that in some games the story is only there to make purpose of what you're doing. For instance, fighting games but to say that all stories in video games are just a crutch is irrational.

I've not played any of those, but I'd be willing to wager pretty strongly that those stories would lose a lot of their appeal without any gameplay attached to them. "Crutch" is not the word I'd use either.

[Anapan]

Casuals, those filthy fucking casuals.
A good rule of thumb I just invented is that if you spend more time playing the game than theorycrafting on forums, running calculator programs and staring at numbers in excel, you're doing it wrong.

How can anyone be confident they understand what's going on without talking to each random pedestrian three times?

Because JRPGs plots are often "Lolz bad guy wants to kill the world so it can be reborn" and it's not like you will get lost

Apparently (silver age) WRPGs don't exist. Not that you'd have to talk to every single peon and city guard, but you'll miss a lot of content and more importantly world building&context in many WRPGs if you just follow the main storyline and never bother talking to random NPCs.

I don't know, I think all NES Megaman games are pretty much the same too so this is not just Nintendo hate.

Mega Man experimented with new stuff A LOT more than Mario games. Mega Man 5's gravity man stage etc. They added new elements to the gameplay (slide, charge shot, all the upgrades and accessories) and because the games weren't tied to a generic forest desert ice castle formula, but rather tied to the 8 robot masters formula, many stages had theme specific gimmicks, like that gravity thing I just mentioned.

You win the internets - High Five!

[EvilRyu2099]

If a game uses its story as a selling point - or there's some expectation that it will have a decent story and it fails to deliver, then by all means slam it to pieces. But RPGs typically don't bill themselves as story-driven, it's the gameplay that's crucial.

Bingo.. Granted you may find some attachment to the characters.. In the end gameplay rules all..

[Erik_Twice]

The thing with narratives and video games is that the medium think so poorly of itself that designers often interrupt the actual game to make us watch a second or third grade movie with terrible actors. awful camera angles and which lasts ten hours.

There's no more narrative in Catherine than there is in Q*Bert or Pengo. It's a two hour film spliced into a game. It's schizophrenic, there's barely a connection between its two halves and as much as I like both they have as much to do with each other as a chair and a hamburger. But most critics seem to think it's enough for games to exist in the same building as their plots or tied to each other with cello-tape which I find awful and forced.

Good narratives in games arise from interaction with the game mechanics, but what I can do, not by what's told to me in a dialogue box or cutscene. People like to say that it's because "games are still in their infancy" but given how hard Space Hulk (1989), UFO: Enemy Unknown (1993) or Dune (1979) beat everyone else in that regard, I find that hard to believe, it's an excuse. Spliced movies sell and are easier to sell than unique mechanics.

Too long; didn't read: Don't put movies in your games, you all should play board games.