For the record: I think I played Deus Ex for 7 or 8 hours before I started really enjoying myself. Partially because I switched from the PS2 to PC version, but also because it took some time for me to get into the game world and immerse myself.
dsheinem wrote:
First, based on my understanding of the game (one largely built by reading about it with a few hours of confirming gameplay), I disagree that the issues that Deus Ex raised were "interesting philosophical questions".
How about you play the actual game instead of reading a plot synopsis on wikipedia? You can never fully judge a game by a review, you must experience it yourself. You get the big picture in a review, but you miss the little details, the symbolism, small moments and important conversations that really make the game (and this is not something that's just exclusive to Deus Ex). No one who praises Silent Hill 2 as the most intelligent horror game of all time quit playing once they reached the apartment.
dsheinem wrote:
Second, there have been plenty of games from before and since Deus Ex that have addressed philosophical ideas or provided social commentary. In the current gen alone there are many titles that have done this (Bioshock, Spec Ops The Line, Journey, Papo and Yo, & Dear Esther come to mind right off the bat, but there are probably 20 more at least), and before Deus Ex there were scores of games to explore cyberpunk themes (including government corruption and Illuminati issues) so I am not sure what you are basing the idea that the game was "one of the first and only" to do so.
I didn't claim that Deus Ex was the first "philosophical" game, but it was one of the few games to do it to such a degree, that it handled it way better than most games that attempt making social commentary. Ultima games are still some of the best games at incorporating philosophical themes to a video game and those were made in the 1980s.
I haven't played Papo and Yo and I wont discuss Journey here since it's such a different game, but out of the rest of your examples (first person view games with philosophical theme to their storylines), Deus Ex is from a design and writing perspective better.
Spec Ops is run of the mill shooter with huge dissonance between it's gameplay and story, no real choices and on design it's not nearly in the same league as Deus Ex.
Dear Esther hardly qualifies as a video game. You can't really compare it to something like Ultima or Shadow of the Colossus.
Bioshock isn't bad, but Deus Ex has more content (writing wise). Bioshock has the big twist at the end, where as in Deus Ex there are various important conversations through out the game and some important, symbolical moments like the Gunther Hermann boss fight. The moral choices and dilemmas are through out the Bioshock series very black and white and binary, where as there's more C&C in Deus Ex and the thematic conflict is more layered, which makes it a more thoughtful and deep.
Mechanically, Deus Ex beats Bioshock. The level design is more open ended and there are multiple ways to solve different situations. Both games suffer from unintresting and poor gunplay (though it's more polished in Bioshock), atleast Deus Ex and System Shock have in-depth RPG systems that make up for the lack of pleasing gameplay with the depth of the mechanics. And Human Revolution polished the gameplay of Deus Ex a lot.
In the end, Bioshock is mostly just a watered down (no pun intended) version of System Shock.
The fact that you raise conspiracies and illuminati as central themes of Deus Ex shows that your understanding of the series is limited. While less prominent in the main storyline, the major philosophical undertones of the series are transhumanism, human nature, corruption and greed (+how it all ties together in it's cyberpunk setting. And the fact that Deus Ex isn't the first cyberpunk video game or even cyberpunk RPG is really irrelevant, I never claimed it to be the first. The important part is that the Deus Ex asked certain interesting questions in that setting first.
dsheinem wrote:
Done what, exactly? Merge an FPS with an open world RPG? I'd put up almost any game of the past five years that tries to do this against Deus Ex: Fallout 3, New Vegas, the Bioshock series, Borderlands 1 and 2, Skyrim, etc. Or are you asking a more specific question?
Deus Ex is not an open world RPG, if you had played the game, you'd know that by now.
I want you to name a FPS/RPG hybrid that came since that was as well designed as Deus Ex. This means RPG/leveling up system that affects your playstyle heavily: C&C
Level design that faciliates this: multiple ways to solve any given level/mission/area.
Out of the games you named, none can touch Deus Ex in design. They can have better AI, better combat and be in many ways better, but none of them touch Deus Ex on excellent level design and in supporting multiple playstyles. Skyrim isn't even a first person shooter.
dsheinem wrote:
There are so many problems with this that I barely know where to start. First of all, I never said that i think "modern linear corridor shooters are in every way better than Deus Ex" for any reason, graphics or otherwise. Second of all, it is possible to have a well designed corridor/linear and a well-designed open/non-linear FPS. They aren't mutually exclusive options.
I never claimed that. But you don't seem to realize the ingenuity of Deus Ex's level and game design. To be able to pull a game like that off requires some great design, when many games fail at level design even when they only have linear routes and support only one playstyle.
dsheinem wrote:
Second, without going through the litany of reasons why Deus Ex is is deeply flawed game, I'll point to the infamous
Tom Chick review which sums up many of my problems with the game.
I freely admit the AI is bad, even for the time.
A lot of the technical problems the game were fixed in Human Revolution.
The tirade about bad RPG logic is something that is common in almost all video games of this nature. I could make the same argument about Half Life 2 or any other given FPS/3D game in a "realistic" world. I agree that "internal logic" is very important part about game design that not many developers get, but I still rather play a fun game with abstract concepts than a realistic simulation of real life, because the latter is boring. This issue some what ties into bad AI.
It also fails to mention that Deus Ex did at times very well in this regard. You'd get scolded for entering a woman's bathroom, for using unnecessary force and so on. That is something not seen in the likes of Bioshock, the new Fallout games, Spec Ops etc.
Other than that, it's mostly about technical problems. Streets are empty due to the engines limitations and so on.
dsheinem wrote:
And seriously, where the fuck do you get off in questioning my credentials? Tell me one fucking thing you've done to express your knowledge of games other than spew some common, deeply-entrenched opinions about them on a forum of mostly like-minded gamers. I am sorry if I come off hostile, but to just dismiss me as "not qualified" for my own profession? I work in a field where one earns one's way through demonstrated, peer reviewed success. I've managed not only to have constructive and interesting discussions with gamers, game designers, and other industry-related folks but also with other like-minded researchers, skeptical colleagues and administrators who don't "get" games, and thousands of students.
If you don't see how Deus Ex, with all it's flaws, is well designed and written, then I question your ability to judge level&game design in a 3D game. Either that, or you haven't played very many FPS and FPS-RPG games during your life, as you don't see how good of a game Deus Ex really is when compared to its competition.
And so far nothing you've written so far has convinced me of your academic capabilities. I'd like to see you explaining how "Deus Ex sucks hard" in a real debate, especially when you've only seen a fraction of its content. I'm not a professional game designer, but there are many pros (and people who aren't pros but much more qualified than me) who'll gladly explain to you why you're wrong in saying so.
dsheinem wrote:
I understand that, on the whole, your opinion is one that is held by many but that is also not universal.
Seen how many awards and "best game ever" polls Deus Ex has been in? Not that polls are a good measure as usually they are popularity contests rather than about design analysis. But it's like Enemy Unknown, though not as flawless, in the way it does so well in PC game polls year after year, because even with it's flaws people respect the quality of writing(*) and good design in it.
You can dislike something, but if you understand design, you'll still give credit where credit is due.
(*): There's a lot of bad dialogue in the game. It's mostly the important conversations and events that people think of when they say Deus Ex has a good story&writing.
at the end of this, otherwise, well said 
