Panzer Dragoon Saga Question(s)

[pierrot]

I do think it's important to keep Panzer Dragoon Saga in a certain context. Critically, it was a massive success, and I think a lot of Sega fans just wanted people to take notice of what came out on 'our' system. The low print run, and generally collectable nature of Saturn games in the West create a barrier, and almost a challenge to anyone who wants to get into the game now to not like it. I'm willing to bet that if the role of PDS were reversed with those of FFVII and OoT, in terms of commercial success, that the argument would still look relatively similar.

[SonicEchoes]

Looong time lurker and finally created an account a few months ago.

Anyway, I don't want to repeat anything that someone already said, so I will try not to repeat something!

Here are the things I truly appreciated about this game as an JRPG.

1- No Needless Side Quests: The game has maybe one, or two, side quests. What bothers me about a lot of JRPGs is that you need to dungeons or what-have you to rescue a pig who belongs to some mayor or something, which isn't moving towards the direction of saving the world. The game has a sense of urgency that you must always do something to get to your goal with minimal distractions.
2- The game has the benefit of having two games before it that were shooters that left a lot of questions about the world, the society, the meaning of the towers. You find out more about the state of humanity, their beliefs, how they survive and how it all happened (or how the people think it all happened)
3- There is a major plot twist I cannot spoil. AH but I wish I could! But when it happened, I grew so much more respect for the game.
4- The sense of loneliness of the game, you're on your own. You feel bad for your dragon when it get hurt.
5- The length, which is both a pro and con, the game if you REALLY stretch it can be around 20 hours, you can probably beat it under 15 if you rush. There is no "padding" and absolute no need to grind. Your dragon is capable early on (the game is a bit easy though). I think this is a pro because its a tight, well paced game. On the other hand, I wish there was more to explore, more people to talk to, etc. But again, due to the urgency of the game, it would be out of place. The game also has a sense of hopelessness. After revenge, what now? Society is still struggling, humanity hasn't recovered from the ancient war. But you press on with that motive.
6- Soundtrack! Not much I can say about it but I love it.
7- The battle system - The game is a lot of fun and the battles do not drag. But it was something about the constant feeling of moving forward as your dragon glides through the sky in the middle of battle, its beautiful.


That's about it really. It is ranked as one of my favorite RPG of all time.

[Reprise]

Nice post. You sum up exactly what I love about the game. In fact, I need to start another game. It's been a while.

[Menegrothx]

What it sounded like to, and maybe to others, initially, Menegroth, was that because PDS didn't live up to your expectations (which may have been too high to begin with?)

maybe the price is affecting your feelings of the actual game?

Probably this.

1- No Needless Side Quests: The game has maybe one, or two, side quests. What bothers me about a lot of JRPGs is that you need to dungeons or what-have you to rescue a pig who belongs to some mayor or something, which isn't moving towards the direction of saving the world. The game has a sense of urgency that you must always do something to get to your goal with minimal distractions.

I'm not sure if I mentioned it in my original post, but I liked this about the game. Few characters, no side stories. I think there were couple of times during the game when I was in the middle of a quest wondering "why am I doing this/why am I here again?", but overall I think it's better than any other JRPG of it's generation in this. You have a clear objective from start to finish. You are trying to get to your goal, that's it. There aren't any unnecessary, complicated and nonsensical subplots and stuff like that that makes you forget about what your actual objective and motivation in the game is.

3- There is a major plot twist I cannot spoil. AH but I wish I could! But when it happened, I grew so much more respect for the game.

Are you refering to

the conversation you have with Crayman when you first visit the tower?

7- The battle system - The game is a lot of fun and the battles do not drag. But it was something about the constant feeling of moving forward as your dragon glides through the sky in the middle of battle, its beautiful.

I disagree. The battles are very cinematic the first time around, but when you're fighting the same battleship for the 10th time, you get really tired when the game stops every 10 seconds to show a small cinematic of the ships crew saying "load the canons!" or "missile loaded", it's really annoying at times.

1. So let's look at point number 1. My take is that Panzer Dragoon Saga wins this one hands down, it tried to incorporate RPG story and structure elements while getting rid of tedious leveling and dungeon crawling.

Will you guys atleast admit that the parts when you were traveling around in tunnels/underground were infinitely worse and poorly designed than the parts where you actually explored out doors areas?
There are loads of small tunnels in the game, the sewer level (which you visit twice), the tower at the end of the game (which again, you visit twice, though it's a lot less annoying than the sewer, the second time around there are some levels of the tower that were clearly designed so they would waste as much of the players time as possible), the burning forest and probably some other underground levels that I'm forgetting at the moment.

[Ben]

1. So let's look at point number 1. My take is that Panzer Dragoon Saga wins this one hands down, it tried to incorporate RPG story and structure elements while getting rid of tedious leveling and dungeon crawling.

Will you guys atleast admit that the parts when you were traveling around in tunnels/underground were infinitely worse and poorly designed than the parts where you actually explored out doors areas?
There are loads of small tunnels in the game, the sewer level (which you visit twice), the tower at the end of the game (which again, you visit twice, though it's a lot less annoying than the sewer, the second time around there are some levels of the tower that were clearly designed so they would waste as much of the players time as possible), the burning forest and probably some other underground levels that I'm forgetting at the moment.

You do have a point (and I should say the last time I fully played through was a good 4 years ago now), but I would say it still had far less of it relative to most games in the genre. By no means is it perfect, it's just my favorite in the genre (unless I'm in a Xenogears mood for whatever reason, anyway). I would say that it had a small enough amount of it so that I never became fed up and quit playing (which happened to me when I decided to try and play through the PSX SaGa games for instance). I think you have to find a balance, but I have a friend who loves games like Azure Dreams which is nothing but a dungeon crawling RPG, so it's all a matter of taste. Also, when you were talking about the Burning Forest area, I think it's all a matter of when you play it. I was blown away back in the day, but I can see how someone experiencing it for the first time now sees it differently.

[pierrot]

I forgot to mention the burning forest. I mentioned a couple pages ago that I never played this game until recently, and I thought the burning forest was really cool.

I will say that the underground segments are a bit of a drag, and easily my least favorite part about the game. I didn't think they dragged on for long enough to really make me despise them though. Actually, I felt like it gave me another opportunity to consider my battle tactics, the first time.

[Hatta]

1- No Needless Side Quests: The game has maybe one, or two, side quests. What bothers me about a lot of JRPGs is that you need to dungeons or what-have you to rescue a pig who belongs to some mayor or something, which isn't moving towards the direction of saving the world. The game has a sense of urgency that you must always do something to get to your goal with minimal distractions.

Which makes the game linear and the world feel devoid of pretty much anything.

2- The game has the benefit of having two games before it that were shooters that left a lot of questions about the world, the society, the meaning of the towers. You find out more about the state of humanity, their beliefs, how they survive and how it all happened (or how the people think it all happened)
3- There is a major plot twist I cannot spoil. AH but I wish I could! But when it happened, I grew so much more respect for the game.
4- The sense of loneliness of the game, you're on your own. You feel bad for your dragon when it get hurt.
6- Soundtrack! Not much I can say about it but I love it.

All of these are good points IMO. The story is interesting and the settings atmospheric.

5- The length, which is both a pro and con, the game if you REALLY stretch it can be around 20 hours, you can probably beat it under 15 if you rush. There is no "padding" and absolute no need to grind. Your dragon is capable early on (the game is a bit easy though). I think this is a pro because its a tight, well paced game. On the other hand, I wish there was more to explore, more people to talk to, etc. But again, due to the urgency of the game, it would be out of place. The game also has a sense of hopelessness. After revenge, what now? Society is still struggling, humanity hasn't recovered from the ancient war. But you press on with that motive.

I was happy the game was over after 20 hours. I'm not sure that's a good sign. A more engrossing RPG like Baldur's Gate or Persona can keep me playing for 60-90 hours, and still be sad when it's over.

7- The battle system - The game is a lot of fun and the battles do not drag. But it was something about the constant feeling of moving forward as your dragon glides through the sky in the middle of battle, its beautiful.

It was creative, but not very deep. I want a battle system that *I* can be creative with, where different players will solve the same problems in different ways. Yes, you could reconfigure your dragon mid battle, but there didn't seem to be much to it. I played with it a bit, but never felt like I gained much by doing so.

[anonymous1980]

Easily better than Suikoden 1&2, Final Fantasy Tactics, Final Fantasy 7/8/9, PS1 versions of Lunar games, Tactics Ogre, Xenogears, Parasite Eve etc? Even amongst Panzer Dragoon Saga fans on RPG forums, statement like that raises eyebrows. There was so much good stuff coming out during that time period that you really have to question that. Like I said, I respect the art direction, storyline and battle system of this game, but they're really not that great that I'd rate this game higher than any other contemporary JRPG.
Because of that, I must say that this is wrong

The PS1 & SNES are my favorite systems ever made, and i can easily argue that the PS1 is a better system to own for JRPGs than the PS2.

I absolutely love Xenogears, despite the shoddy second disc and questionable psychological missinterpretations in the plot. Panzer Dragoon Saga has a much better pace and much better combat system.

Xenogears has the vastly better characters though, and the much more interesting plot.

Of that list, i've played Parasite Eve, Suikoden 2, Tactics and Lunar: Silver Star Story Complete, and wile i do think they're great games, i'll take PDS over each one (note: each one, but combined, i'll take them over the singular PDS any day of the week). Valkyrie Profile is also a fantastic game to play.

As for Final Fantasy... That's easy for me. I don't like the series at all, sole exception being FF IX. I honestly think they're extremely mediocre (especially story-wise) and there are plenty of PS1 JRPGs that, to put it bluntly, shits on this trio in every conceivable way, except for production values. This is the series i was mainly thinking about wen i said that Panzer Dragoon Saga is light years ahead in design.

I respect your opinion though, and i could never presume that my own opinion is objective fact. Gaming is a personal experience, and each opinion is a personal truth for every single gamer there is.

[anonymous1980]

A more engrossing RPG like Baldur's Gate or Persona can keep me playing for 60-90 hours, and still be sad when it's over.

Personally, wile i do like Baldur's Gate as a decent dungeon crawl, i thought that the plot was very mediocre, predictable and.. quite boring. I never trully loved the BG series, but i do think they're good games. I enjoyed the gameplay, the exploration and some of the character interactions.

But, i'll take the magnificent plot & incredibly well written characters of Planescape:Torment, the brilliant, deep combat system & dungeon design of Temple of Elemental Evil, and the absolutely fantastic role playing mechanics of Arcanum: Of Steamworks & Magicka over the Baldur's Gate series any day of the week.

Then there's the likes of Neverwinter Nights 2: Mask of the Betrayer (in my opinion being the best story of this entire generation, and overall only surpassed by PS:T), Vampire The Masquarade: Bloodlines, Fallout 1 & 2 (vastly better writting/quest design than BG), Gothic 2: Gold Edition and - one of my favorite 1st person dungeon crawlers of all times - Might & Magic: World of Xeen (DosBox + 2xSAI filter makes the game look beautiful in its grid based 2D graphics, btw)

[BogusMeatFactory]

As for Final Fantasy... That's easy for me. I don't like the series at all, sole exception being FF IX. I honestly think they're extremely mediocre (especially story-wise) and there are plenty of PS1 JRPGs that, to put it bluntly, shits on this trio in every conceivable way, except for production values. This is the series i was mainly thinking about wen i said that Panzer Dragoon Saga is light years ahead in design.

I respect your opinion though, and i could never presume that my own opinion is objective fact. Gaming is a personal experience, and each opinion is a personal truth for every single gamer there is.

I like you Anonymous! I really agree with you on Final Fantasy IX though. That is one of the few final fantasy games I have enjoyed, aside from VI. I honestly can't tell you why, but it was really engaging and I can't rightly put my finger on it.

Back on topic though. In response to Hatta, some games load on side quests to pad the playtime. A lot of times they do nothing to develop any characters and seem really juvenile against the tone of the story. I feel like any side quests need to add to the development of characters. Some games do this incredibly right and I applaud them for that. Sometimes linearity is a good thing, as long as it is done well. Compare Panzer Dragoon Saga to Final Fantasy XIII and you can definitely see those differences in how linearity can be done right and be done wrong.

Sometimes we just want sandbox for sandbox's sake and it is pulled off horribly.