Solving sexism in games: Fat/ugly human female characters

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Should there be more ugly female characters and fewer attractive female chracters in video games?

Yes there should be
9
28%
No there shouldn't be
16
50%
Undecided
7
22%
 
Total votes: 32

Forlorn Drifter
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Re: Solving sexism in games: Fat/ugly human female character

Post by Forlorn Drifter »

Dylan wrote:The characters in Dragon's Crown are all pretty hyper-characterized though, not just the females. Just look at the Dwarf:

*Dwarf image*

Whereas the Sorceress is hyper-feminine, the Dwarf is hyper-masculine. Like 90% of his mass is solid muscle and the other 10% is beard.
Waiting to see who would bring this up first.

Here's another question- why is it offensive to play up a woman's femininity, but to play up a mans manliness nobody bats an eye?

Just throwing that out there, because there was a pretty big hubub about the Sorceress for a bit there on certain sites.
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AppleQueso

Re: Solving sexism in games: Fat/ugly human female character

Post by AppleQueso »

Forlorn Drifter wrote: Here's another question- why is it offensive to play up a woman's femininity, but to play up a mans manliness nobody bats an eye?
Because that femininity is played up in a way designed to appeal to men, while the masculinity is played up as a male power fantasy.

I pointed it out before, but if male characters were designed to appeal to women in the same way female characters are designed to appeal to men, male characters would look more like all those prettyboy JRPG protagonists.

Also, you have to consider the bigger picture. Exaggerating feminine sex characteristics reinforces notions of women being valued only for those characteristics. If those notions didn't already exist as a larger part of society, then they wouldn't be as much of an issue when its here. I'm talking in a very generalized sense mind you.

I don't think the character designer's intentions were necessarily malicious or anything like that though.
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Damm64
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Re: Solving sexism in games: Fat/ugly human female character

Post by Damm64 »

Hey you got ugly female's the amazons looks really ahm...
Image
Well we know how she looks...
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Jmustang1968
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Re: Solving sexism in games: Fat/ugly human female character

Post by Jmustang1968 »

AppleQueso wrote:
Forlorn Drifter wrote: Here's another question- why is it offensive to play up a woman's femininity, but to play up a mans manliness nobody bats an eye?
Because that femininity is played up in a way designed to appeal to men, while the masculinity is played up as a male power fantasy.

I pointed it out before, but if male characters were designed to appeal to women in the same way female characters are designed to appeal to men, male characters would look more like all those prettyboy JRPG protagonists.

Also, you have to consider the bigger picture. Exaggerating feminine sex characteristics reinforces notions of women being valued only for those characteristics. If those notions didn't already exist as a larger part of society, then they wouldn't be as much of an issue when its here. I'm talking in a very generalized sense mind you.

I don't think the character designer's intentions were necessarily malicious or anything like that though.
While Dragon's Crowns depictions are ridiculous to the point of being laughable, I think this is an over generalization that encompasses the feminist view, and feminists do not speak for all or even most women. Women being depicted the way they are in games is a fantasy for some women gamers. They would want to be attractive or endowed in that way. Some do find it insulting for sure, but this isnt some universal belief. I would also argue that many womens man fantasy isn't a pretty boy or feminine JRPG character.

The amazon is also proportioned crazily and is very muscular. I think most all the characters in the game are exaggerated caricatures.

I just dislike these movements that would seemingly quash artistic or stylistic freedom in games whether or not they are in good taste. If something offends someone, don't buy it.
AppleQueso

Re: Solving sexism in games: Fat/ugly human female character

Post by AppleQueso »

Jmustang1968 wrote:
AppleQueso wrote:
Forlorn Drifter wrote: Here's another question- why is it offensive to play up a woman's femininity, but to play up a mans manliness nobody bats an eye?
Because that femininity is played up in a way designed to appeal to men, while the masculinity is played up as a male power fantasy.

I pointed it out before, but if male characters were designed to appeal to women in the same way female characters are designed to appeal to men, male characters would look more like all those prettyboy JRPG protagonists.

Also, you have to consider the bigger picture. Exaggerating feminine sex characteristics reinforces notions of women being valued only for those characteristics. If those notions didn't already exist as a larger part of society, then they wouldn't be as much of an issue when its here. I'm talking in a very generalized sense mind you.

I don't think the character designer's intentions were necessarily malicious or anything like that though.
While Dragon's Crowns depictions are ridiculous to the point of being laughable, I think this is an over generalization that encompasses the feminist view, and feminists do not speak for all or even most women. Women being depicted the way they are in games is a fantasy for some women gamers. They would want to be attractive or endowed in that way. Some do find it insulting for sure, but this isnt some universal belief. I would also argue that many womens man fantasy isn't a pretty boy or feminine JRPG character.
See bold. It's a generalization of the viewpoint by admission. Forlorn wanted to know why some people were up in arms, so I tried to explain it.

And the prettyboy thing, see Vaan. A character literally created for the sole purpose of appealing to female gamers in Japan. I think it's fair to surmise that if more male characters were created with a female audience in mind, they'd likely resemble stuff like that. Sure, it's not every woman's fantasy, but I never said that it was. Not every man's fantasy is giant exposed boobs either, but that's what female characters obviously designed to appeal to men tend to look like.
I just dislike these movements that would seemingly quash artistic or stylistic freedom in games whether or not they are in good taste.
The point isn't to quash freedoms at all, at least not where I'm coming from. It's simply to say to artists and designers: "Hey, take some of this stuff into consideration a bit, k?"
If something offends someone, don't buy it.
I understand this, but it kinda only applies if a given game has nothing to offer outside of whatever content someone is taking offense to. This is rarely the case I find. People can find specific content offensive while simultaneously enjoying the rest of the game. People should absolutely feel free to call out content they take issue with in games they otherwise enjoy or wish to support.
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Re: Solving sexism in games: Fat/ugly human female character

Post by Erik_Twice »

Forlorn Drifter wrote:Back on topic, lets bring up "Dragon's Crown", the PS3 and Vita game. How do you guys feel about that, specifically the way they show the sorceress?
I think people who criticize a game before playing it are doing the arts a huge disservice.

Anyways, it seems to me those that criticize Dragon's Crown art direction haven't really asked themselves why the game looks like it does. It's a well made game, by a good artist and the exaggeration is so obvious that simply deriding the game as fanservice makes you a shallow critic in my mind. There's a lot to say about the artwork, from the medieval painting influences to Mickey Mouse in a came from Fantasia. This is not a dumb game from the looks of it and

In a sense this is like seeing a panel by Frazetta and only noticing asses and breasts. It's so reductive so as to be worthless.

Because there's a lot to think about in this game. The buxom sorceress is buxom for a reason and players will probably be told that she's a necromancer. A necromancer, someone who gives unnatural life, so it only makes sense to draw her as a fertility goddess, with giant mammaries, which also ties into the sexual subcontext of wizardry and witches as a whole, a good explanation for her tough, dominatrix attitude. Witches aren't good, nice christian women but corrupted succubus who lure the unsuspecting and weak.

It's not exactly subtle yet few talk about it, or how the Knight is a clear "bishonen in shiny armor" stereotype, with his raw power turned into cuteness when he takes off his helm and his fair hair flows in the air. I mean, goddamn, you can't get any more obvious than that! :lol:

That I notice this and reviewers who have actually played the game doesn't makes me very sad when it comes to the analysis of the arts.

AppleQueso wrote:I pointed it out before, but if male characters were designed to appeal to women in the same way female characters are designed to appeal to men, male characters would look more like all those prettyboy JRPG protagonists.
So muscled firefighters aren't attractive to women? Guess all those shirtless scenes are for male fantasies then! :lol:

Some feminists are obssesed with talking for all women and deciding for them what they should find attractive instead of recognizing everyone has a different taste. Some women like prettyboys, others like charming devils and muscled manly men. This is not surprising and you don't need to read Twilight to realize it, just talk to women.

The same goes for men. Not everyone likes the hot bombshell stereotype, some like the cute neighbour instead. Putting everything in two boxes as if they were the only options is a silly way to approach things and also tends to ignore the LGTB side. Hard to complain about tits when other women foam over them as much as I do :lol:

TL;DR. It's not as simple as "male fantasy/female fantasy".
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Menegrothx
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Re: Solving sexism in games: Fat/ugly human female character

Post by Menegrothx »

Jmustang1968 wrote: I would also argue that many womens man fantasy isn't a pretty boy or feminine JRPG character.
American and Japanese women have different tastes
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Re: Solving sexism in games: Fat/ugly human female character

Post by ZenErik »

At least the elf in Dragon's Crown is cute. Gonna be my main. :)
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AppleQueso

Re: Solving sexism in games: Fat/ugly human female character

Post by AppleQueso »

General_Norris wrote:
AppleQueso wrote:I pointed it out before, but if male characters were designed to appeal to women in the same way female characters are designed to appeal to men, male characters would look more like all those prettyboy JRPG protagonists.
So muscled firefighters aren't attractive to women? Guess all those shirtless scenes are for male fantasies then! :lol:

Some feminists are obssesed with talking for all women and deciding for them what they should find attractive instead of recognizing everyone has a different taste. Some women like prettyboys, others like charming devils and muscled manly men. This is not surprising and you don't need to read Twilight to realize it, just talk to women.

The same goes for men. Not everyone likes the hot bombshell stereotype, some like the cute neighbour instead. Putting everything in two boxes as if they were the only options is a silly way to approach things and also tends to ignore the LGTB side. Hard to complain about tits when other women foam over them as much as I do :lol:

TL;DR. It's not as simple as "male fantasy/female fantasy".
AppleQueso wrote:And the prettyboy thing, see Vaan. A character literally created for the sole purpose of appealing to female gamers in Japan. I think it's fair to surmise that if more male characters were created with a female audience in mind, they'd likely resemble stuff like that. Sure, it's not every woman's fantasy, but I never said that it was. Not every man's fantasy is giant exposed boobs either, but that's what female characters obviously designed to appeal to men tend to look like.
Yeah I don't really disagree with most of what you said.

Point overall being, most of the shirtless musclebound male characters you see in games weren't likely designed with appealing to women in mind. It's not really the same thing as overly buxom female characters. That's all I'm trying to say.
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Re: Solving sexism in games: Fat/ugly human female character

Post by ZenErik »

Personal taste, I guess. I'm generally not a fan of bulky shirtless men anymore than I am of hyper sexualized ZZZ cup women.
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