How are we supposed to collect games in the future?

[Ivo]

Conversely, owning the physical medium means

-Your games will last longer than you do if properly cared for.

Disagree. This is one main advantage of digital over physical!

I cannot see that as true unless the digital release was very loosely controlled. Authentication servers will likely die. Harddrives and other storage devices will fail. Consoles will break. Unless the game has no online authentication, can be copied, and the copies can run on other consoles/PCs, how can digital releases last as long as a disc, let alone a cartridge?

Other than the point about authentication servers (which only applies to something like Diablo 3 and similar) you are making my point, not yours.

Hard drives fail <- weakness of physical.
Consoles will break <- weakness of physical.
Discs and cartridges are physical and likewise weak.
Solid state memory like SD cards are probably about as durable (if not more) than printed circuit boards, but also have a lifetime. Data itself does not.

This is not hard to understand. Between tapes, vinyls, CDs and mp3s, which one do you think is more durable? If you then go "but mp3 players can break", well sure, but so can CD players (which have more moving parts even)!

In many instances people are more likely to lose a digital collection by some method, than a disaster is likely to destroy their physical collection. I know several people who've had harddrives fail, consoles break, or lost account information. I can't say I know many people who've had their houses robbed, flooded, burned, or flattened by a tornado.

I still disagree.

Most of these online distributed games have their own in-built backup. As far as I know that goes for GoG, Steam, Xbox Live Arcade, PSN and WiiWare. If would be interested if you know any people who lost games on any of those. I really can not fathom how it would really be more likely to lose an online collection on one of those, so more details on how that sort of thing can even occur would be desirable if you are to convince me (or anyone else?).

Other than that, if you don't have a backup your own data it is partly your fault when something bad happens to it. It is still the hard drive's (or whatever) fault for failing of course, but something like that is not unusual statistically. You wouldn't leave your door open either - even though the thieves are still at fault - being robbed if you leave your door open is also not unusual I guess.

[DinnerX]

Other than the point about authentication servers (which only applies to something like Diablo 3 and similar) you are making my point, not yours.

Hard drives fail <- weakness of physical.
Consoles will break <- weakness of physical.
Discs and cartridges are physical and likewise weak.
Solid state memory like SD cards are probably about as durable (if not more) than printed circuit boards, but also have a lifetime. Data itself does not.

This is not hard to understand. Between tapes, vinyls, CDs and mp3s, which one do you think is more durable? If you then go "but mp3 players can break", well sure, but so can CD players (which have more moving parts even)!

I wasn't clear enough. DRM free Mp3s are more durable than a CD, (with a CD you can make an mp3 and have the best of both worlds, but I get what you mean). That's because I can copy and use the data however I want. That isn't true for most digital games.

The servers for redownloading digital games won't be around forever. When the servers die (in most cases) you are left with your games tied to some physical item that is generally less durable than a CD or cartridge. For example, Xbox Live for the original Xbox is totally dead now, so when my Xbox breaks I will lose whatever digital stuff I had.

In many instances people are more likely to lose a digital collection by some method, than a disaster is likely to destroy their physical collection. I know several people who've had harddrives fail, consoles break, or lost account information. I can't say I know many people who've had their houses robbed, flooded, burned, or flattened by a tornado.

I still disagree.

Most of these online distributed games have their own in-built backup. As far as I know that goes for GoG, Steam, Xbox Live Arcade, PSN and WiiWare. If would be interested if you know any people who lost games on any of those. I really can not fathom how it would really be more likely to lose an online collection on one of those, so more details on how that sort of thing can even occur would be desirable if you are to convince me (or anyone else?).

With GoG a person is safe since they can backup and run their games on any PC they want. I know a guy who lost his Xbox Live Account info and apparently it's very difficult to get that fixed. When his Xbox RRODs he won't be able to redownload any games or DLC he's got, as I understand it (although I'm not sure if he has any Live Arcade games). WiiWare games are lost when your Wii breaks, but I don't know anyone personally who's had a Wii break.

Steam and the PSN are a little better as far as I know, but who knows how long they will last, or if they will continue to support old technology if they do last for decades. While I don't think anyone lost any games, I quite vividly remember the steam EULA change a while back that people were required to accept in order to access their games. I also remember when steam stopped supporting Windows 98 and ME, leaving some users high and dry.

When "your" games are dependent on someone else you are taking a risk. Since the industry has repeatedly seen services die or stop supporting old stuff, I don't believe people will still be conveniently redownloading and playing Xbox 360 Live Arcade titles on their 360 when I'm playing Super Mario Sunshine 20 years from now.

[Hazerd]

Ivo is making points a Materialist *Collector* would never care about

[Menegrothx]

I wish there was a way to make games so that they would be pirate proof for X amount of years, but become completely "open" after certain amount of time has passed. That way developers wouldn't loose money to piracy during the time which their games are being sold in stores, but after years have passed and a new generation of consoles has arrived and you can't find the game from anywhere new anymore, the games would become free and easily available for the sake of preservation of game history.

I don't think this is fair -- if you want to play a great online-only game, you've got to be on the bandwagon. We know that online servers for anything that doesn't make it super mainstream get shut down relatively quickly, so if you want the experience at the time you have to pony up.

That's why proper online games allow server hosting and that's (one of the reasons) why the current generation of gaming wont spawn any "legendary" games that will still be played 10-15 years from now on, maybe even on a professional level (Starcraft 2 might become an exception).

[SpaceBooger]

How are we supposed to collect games in the future?

Buy a new Ouya every year. They may look nice on a shelf next to your old cell phones.

[Hazerd]

How are we supposed to collect games in the future?

Buy a new Ouya every year. They may look nice on a shelf next to your old cell phones.

in 100 years, who knows, maybe the N-Gage will be worth something!

[Menegrothx]

There are actually quite a few expensive (considering the relatively small library) and rare N Gage games (like 200+ dollars if I'm not mistaken). N Gages are already quite expensive. The problem is that will they work in the future or not

[elmagicochrisg]

There are already so many consoles and games out there that one should not have to worry about not being able to collect for newer consoles. Play new games if you must, and collect for older consoles. There's plenty of good games and consoles to collect out there. More than you will ever be able to play...

In time you will also be able to emulate most of the new games, which will have become old games at one point. I'm pretty sure digital only games won't be lost forever once support for them ends. So no worries there. You'll just have to be patient and wait for the emulators...

[Retronomy]

I have games on Cassette Tape and 5inch soft floppy that are in near perfect, and readable, condition. Conversely, console situations (like the original xbox live arcade), and previous digital game distributors have died off. I feel this is a pretty good testament to the longevity of Physical vs Digital.

The argument that you provide, Ivo, is essentially that if left in it's current state from now till the end of time, then yes, digital would last longer.

But I could say that if for some reason my physical products were in a completely sterile environment, say, oh, a vacuum of space, I could say the same thing.

But neither of those situations are real life. You're entrusting your games, which for all intents and purposes you hardly even own, to another entity that can and at will withdraw, change and manipulate said games. They also reserve the right to make changes to these situations, as you agreed to when you initially used the platform.

When steam is gone, your games are gone.
When Xbox is gone, your arcade is gone.
When your Wii is gone, your games are gone.
When the servers that authenticate your games die, so do your games.

Do you see a theme here, yet?
All of these situations eventually are beyond your control. And that is the problem.
Meanwhile, so long as the rare natural disaster doesn't happen, my commodore 64 cassettes are going to STILL be there, likely still in readable form.

Of course, the ultimate solution to all of this is to support piracy.
But don't do that because that's illegal.

[DinnerX]

Of course, the ultimate solution to all of this is to support piracy.
But don't do that because that's illegal.

Better yet, get people interested in changing the copyright laws in the US and the rest of the world. The way people live (if a game is old it's OK to download) is the way the law should be, in my opinion.