Poison's legacy: Newest God of War won't have female enemies

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MrPopo
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Re: Poison's legacy: Newest God of War won't have female ene

Post by MrPopo »

threetoed wrote:The kind of violence that the devs are voluntarily removing:
1. Makes up a small fraction of the overall violence in the series
Which means nothing for or against having it in.
2. In both God of War and videogames in general, sexualized violence is perpetrated disproportionately on female characters
Which means that if we added sexualized violence against males to bring things in balance it'd also be ok.
3. Is the type of violence most likely to make female players (a potential income source) feel uncomfortable or unwelcome
First reasonable statement you've made.
4. Has the effect of increasing the male audience's perception that real life violence against women is less serious.
[citation needed] Also, you're again implying that real life violence against women is different from real life violence against men.
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Re: Poison's legacy: Newest God of War won't have female ene

Post by threetoed »

MrPopo wrote:
threetoed wrote:The kind of violence that the devs are voluntarily removing:
1. Makes up a small fraction of the overall violence in the series
Which means nothing for or against having it in.
You're right, but since several people seem to think that either the original article or that I am saying God of War is bad because it is violent or that female enemies are being (or should be) removed from the game. I am not. I am just saying that sexualized violence should be removed.
MrPopo wrote:
2. In both God of War and videogames in general, sexualized violence is perpetrated disproportionately on female characters
Which means that if we added sexualized violence against males to bring things in balance it'd also be ok.
Two points here.

1. You are saying that I'm favoring one gender over another because I am saying that a type of violence that is not perpetrated against men in any game should also not be perpetrated against women. You feel that this sexualized violence against women should stay, which would mean that all sexualized violence in games would be against women. I'm not understanding why you think that I'm the one favoring one of the genders here.

2. I'm in the middle of an argument that we should make the amount of sexualized violence zero. I'm not sure why you think my solution is to add sexualized violence against men? Again, since you are opposed to this type of violence being removed, and against an imbalance in the amount of sexualized violence against males and females, isn't the logical conclusion of your argument to add more sexualized violence against men to make it even?

But, if it would ease your troubled soul, let me rephrase this point to: "This type of sexualized violence should not be in video games against people of any gender, and especially not only shown against women as it is in video games now."

MrPopo wrote:
4. Has the effect of increasing the male audience's perception that real life violence against women is less serious.
[citation needed] Also, you're again implying that real life violence against women is different from real life violence against men.
Ah, I did forget the citation, thank you for reminding me.
J Interpers Violence. 2012 Apr 30. [Epub ahead of print] wrote: This study is the first study to use actual video game playing and control for causal order, when exploring the effect of sexual exploitation and violence against women in video games on attitudes toward women. By employing a Solomon Four-Group experimental research design, this exploratory study found that a video game depicting sexual objectification of women and violence against women resulted in statistically significant increased rape myths acceptance (rape-supportive attitudes) for male study participants but not for female participants.
It's not that I am differentiating between real life violence, the study only looked at sexualized violence against women in video games and its effect on players' views of real life violence against women. It's possible, even likely, that playing a scene of sexual violence against men makes people more likely to downplay the seriousness of violence against men, I don't know for sure. The issue would be that they would have to find an incidence of sexualized violence against men in video games before they could test for it, since such depictions are extremely rare.
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Re: Poison's legacy: Newest God of War won't have female ene

Post by dsheinem »

threetoed wrote: What is the specific context that you believe justifies the claim that the Sony Dev Team voluntarily removing sexualized violence against women is a bad thing?
I NEVER said NOR do I believe that removing sexualized violence against women in GOW is a bad thing. In fact, I said it makes sense as a way to evolve the character and his story.

I DID say that the God of War series is not one that is especially mindlessly violent towards women, at least compared to the game that the study you cite used in its testing - GTA IV - a game that EMPHSAIZES mindless violence against women and everyone else. Did you actually read the article or just the abstract? There's nothing in it which supports your non-specific arguments against the God of War series. The only time the series is mentioned is in this paragraph:
Out of the top 10 video games listed midyear 2010 (New
Super Mario Brothers; Call Of Duty: Modern Warfare; Battlefield: Bad
Company 2; Final Fantasy XIII; Wii Fit Plus; God of War III; Pokemon
SoulSilver; Wii Sports Resort, Mass Effect 2, Pokemon HeartGold Version;
Morris, 2010), most have violent content, including violence against women,
and some contain sexual objectification of women...

Considering the increased sales in video games, along with patterns of
obsessive gaming, combined with depictions of violence against and sexual
objectification of women in popular video games, perhaps it is no coincidence
that coercive sexual experiences during adolescence and young adulthood
have been considered a public health problem in recent years.
This wording in these claims is extremely misleading, and is indicative of the worst "scare mongering" research on games, a category into which this article clearly falls. I know a few things about qualitative research and quite a bit about game studies research - enough to know that this is a shit article in a less than highly respected journal.

Also worth noting: they don't define "sexual violence" nor do they use the term "sexualized violence".
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Re: Poison's legacy: Newest God of War won't have female ene

Post by Forlorn Drifter »

I've been wondering the whole time I've read this... what qualifies as "sexual violence"? As far as I know rape/bondage/random groping/erotic spanking aren't attacks, so...
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Re: Poison's legacy: Newest God of War won't have female ene

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Forlorn Drifter wrote:I've been wondering the whole time I've read this... what qualifies as "sexual violence"? As far as I know rape/bondage/random groping/erotic spanking aren't attacks, so...
You have to input the Konami code to unlock them.
1. You are saying that I'm favoring one gender over another because I am saying that a type of violence that is not perpetrated against men in any game should also not be perpetrated against women. You feel that this sexualized violence against women should stay, which would mean that all sexualized violence in games would be against women. I'm not understanding why you think that I'm the one favoring one of the genders here.

2. I'm in the middle of an argument that we should make the amount of sexualized violence zero. I'm not sure why you think my solution is to add sexualized violence against men? Again, since you are opposed to this type of violence being removed, and against an imbalance in the amount of sexualized violence against males and females, isn't the logical conclusion of your argument to add more sexualized violence against men to make it even?
I'm not saying it should stay, I'm saying it should not be pressured to be removed. It's a key difference. I don't personally care about the content in the GoW games because their general gameplay doesn't appeal to me. But I think the creators should be able to include what ever violent depictions they want. What I want is for us to stop going "Oh, that's violence against <race/religion/gender>" and just focus on whether we think the violence itself is over the top. If you're arguing that sexualized violence should be zero, then stop including the phrase "against women".
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Re: Poison's legacy: Newest God of War won't have female ene

Post by BurningDoom »

"Live and let live."

As long as there isn't REAL violence against women, then who cares? Is it your job to police everyone else's morals and opinions? Is it your job to censor someone else's creation? I think not.

If you don't like it, then don't play it. But who are you to say that we can't play it or have our own opinions about it?
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Re: Poison's legacy: Newest God of War won't have female ene

Post by Ack »

BurningDoom wrote:"Live and let live."

As long as there isn't REAL violence against women, then who cares? Is it your job to police everyone else's morals and opinions? Is it your job to censor someone else's creation? I think not.

If you don't like it, then don't play it. But who are you to say that we can't play it or have our own opinions about it?
I believe that threetoed is concerned that imagery such as sexual violence towards women in video games will either desensitize or possibly lead to an increase in real sexual violence towards women.

Since I know Ds has done academic work regarding the study of video games, I feel he'd be best suited to answer the questions I have, which are: how do games affect us, and what reputable research has appeared concerning how video games may influence our morals, ethics, or mental capabilities and considerations? Because I feel those are the primary concerns of all involved. There has been some interest in how the exclusion of sexual violence may affect the narrative of the GOW series' story, but at this point I feel it is a lesser piece of the discussion.
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Re: Poison's legacy: Newest God of War won't have female ene

Post by Menegrothx »

threetoed wrote: 4. Has the effect of increasing the male audience's perception that real life violence against women is less serious.
Since you gave me no answer, I'll ask it again.

Why is "sexualized" violence any worse than killing and torturing people for fun and laughing about it in games like Postal and GTA?
Why is the violence "sexualized" when the player dominates a helpless female NPC, but it's not "sexualized" when the player dominates a helpless male NPC in a similiar fashion? Because it's assumed that no self-respecting man would ever get sexually aroused from dominating another man? Then what about all those cases where normally straight guys rape another men in prision showers?

If dominating and killing (female) NPCs for sexual satisfaction is wrong and has the effect of increasing the audiences perception that it's ok to do the so in real life too, then why other kind of cruel acts towards helpless NPCs that give satisfaction to the player don't have the same effect?
I remember back in 2001-2004 when I was in school, a large number of young boys of my age group (myself included) bought GTA 3/Vice City/San Andreas and Postal 2 only because they enjoyed causing mayhem in those games. Doing things to innocent people you can't do in real life (urinate on them [->infect them with gonorrhea], set them on fire, blow them up, shoot them, beat them with melee weapons) was a major selling point for all of those games
threetoed wrote:It's possible, even likely, that playing a scene of sexual violence against men makes people more likely to downplay the seriousness of violence against men, I don't know for sure. The issue would be that they would have to find an incidence of sexualized violence against men in video games before they could test for it, since such depictions are extremely rare.
Defy sexualized violence.
I dont know what game(s) that study was tested on (this place gives me a "page not found" when I try to download the document), but examples of same kind of sexualized violence towards women as in that God of War 3 scene that you analyzed earlier are extremely rare. If you ignore the fact that she's topless, then you can find examples of same kind of violence being used against equally helpless male NPCs in the God of War-series.

What's the line between sexualized and "normal" violence against an innocent female NPC? Is all violence done towards female NPCs sexualized, or is it only sexualized in the cases where they are half naked? If you kill a stripper (or a hooker) and a construction worker with a baseball bat in a GTA game, is it sexualized violence when you kill the hooker/stripper only because she wears revealing clothing (because of her job)?
Given the fact that apart from Japanese rape simulation games, there aren't really any games where you can actually rape a NPC, sexualized violence does not require a sexual context or actual sex, only a scenario where the player has the power to control and dominate weak and helpless NPCs, which gives the player a sense of power and dominance and therefore satisfies them sexually. If that's the case, then there are plenty of games with sexualized violence commited against men.
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Re: Poison's legacy: Newest God of War won't have female ene

Post by dsheinem »

Ack wrote: how do games affect us, and what reputable research has appeared concerning how video games may influence our morals, ethics, or mental capabilities and considerations?
The short of it? They effect us the same way that movies, books, or anything else we encounter does - differently. There is no "one answer" to your question, only answers in specific situations and contexts. One of the best books I've encountered on the subject is this: -I'd recommend it to anyone curious in answering the questions you just posed, though it too has its problems and might swing a bit too far in the "games can't cause problems" direction. It does a nice job of debunking some - but not all - research on games.


As for a reputable journal on games, I find his one to be very solid: http://gac.sagepub.com/

Also might as well plug this old thread: http://www.racketboy.com/forum/viewtopi ... 45&t=22885
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Re: Poison's legacy: Newest God of War won't have female ene

Post by D.D.D. »

Ack wrote:
BurningDoom wrote:"Live and let live."

As long as there isn't REAL violence against women, then who cares? Is it your job to police everyone else's morals and opinions? Is it your job to censor someone else's creation? I think not.

If you don't like it, then don't play it. But who are you to say that we can't play it or have our own opinions about it?
I believe that threetoed is concerned that imagery such as sexual violence towards women in video games will either desensitize or possibly lead to an increase in real sexual violence towards women.
That could be a valid concern. My issue is, if someone's parents did a proper job raising a child, they would know right from wrong. If we need to worry about a "properly" raised person/adult being influenced by a game, I think we should have other concerns about said individual.

@threetoed, actually, have you even played GOW? Because if you haven't, if a mythological female baddie comes at you with a sword, Kratos is okay to "dispatch" her much like he's okay to annihilate a dude with a sword.
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