dsheinem wrote:
1. I haven't seen a good answer to the question of why someone's personal religious beliefs about my individual soul should give them the power to create laws that discriminate against behavior that effects only me and like-minded people.
2. But the state can't define someone as a "victim" becasue they are taught something out of line with a specific (contentious) religious theology. If this were the case, every good science teacher would be creating hundreds of "victims" by teaching evolution per state curriculum guidelines.
3. On "no secular issues in the grand scheme" - this isn't really a relevant argument in this discussion, since you are living in a secular world and have chosen to mobilize "disapproval" in some fashion within it. Religious people enter the secular realm by voting, firing/hiring, and doing many other things in public.
4. I still don't understand this at all. Can you define "civil rights" for me?
5. Giving up (even in part) becasue you "maybe haven't made your point well" isn't really a good way to leave a debate...it makes you look like you don't really have a leg to stand on...
Again, I can't multi-quote, so i've numbered.
1. I care about your soul David, I care about all souls, this covers why I care. I'm not sure about the use of the word "power" or "discrimination". Who is being discriminated against? This is what I keep saying, but you say you don't have a good answer. The answer is the answer, you may not like it, but it is the answer. I believe to commit a homosexual act is to commit a sin against God. I believe to yell in anger at my wife is a sin against God. I believe to punch someone who cuts me off in traffic is a sin against God. Sins against God being defined as behaviors that we (consenting adherents and partners in the New Covenant) understand to be immoral and displeasing to God.
I would not support anything in this realm (secular, as you prefer) that makes them appear any less than what they are, displeasing to God. Passing laws in this realm (state / government / secular - whatever you prefer) that displease God are something it is my duty and my want to speak about. When speaking to those who don't see this as a blink of a realm, it is a tough thing to do, and people say things like "I haven't seen a good answer yet", when maybe what they might say is, "I don't like your answer" or maybe, "I just don't understand your answer."
2. Well, they are, granted i'm making an assumption of your understanding of the word "evolution". There is certainly adaptation, extinction, and natural selection in some regard, but any curriculum suggesting we evolve from monkeys is dangerous and I of course dispute and would speak out against it. Again, your statement of "good science teacher" is opinion, cleverly thrown in as fact, as you are prone to do.
3. It is the only argument in the discussion. We should always be making decisions with full understanding of how fleeting this world is. It is a tough thing to do, so many temptations: liquor, easy / attractive women, violent video games, perversion, gambling, pride, lust, homosexuality, earthly treasures, etc.
4. Probably not in an acceptable fashion to you. When I use the term, I use it in the understanding of things all humans should be allowed to do, its not a term I think i've ever used unless it was already being used, and then I use it in that context. I don't view them in the light as
rights as you do, again, because all I do and am allowed to do is at the Grace of God and at His will.
5. That's your opinion. It's wrong, but it's yours. When we risk alienating and driving away those who may otherwise embrace Him, it is irresponsible to continue the track. DinnerX and I see people putting Assman plates, among other posts, and we have to be responsible about our participation in the thread.
At the end of this topic, if iv'e cemented a perception that Christians hate homosexuals, then iv'e done a terrible thing. If one person has left this debate thinking that Christians are intolerant of any peoples, we have done a terrible thing. We are intolerant of sin and it is our hope to explain that we all sin, but it should be avoided through faith, education and prayer.
Your comment, "...leg to stand on" That's the sin of pride, Dave, the need to make the comment you made - we both explained why we were leaving, but the passive-aggressive comment was an inaccurate victory dance.
Pride. I'm guilty of that one myself...often.
