Let's fight back against the NDAA

[Inazuma]

Our government has a great track record of doing the right thing to help the people. Calm down, shut up and get back in line with the other sheep.

Yeah, the country is such a massive shithole. Everyone's life sucks. We're like subsaharan Africa.

See, I can use sarcasm too.

Your point is that things could be worse so we have no right to complain?

[MrPopo]

Our government has a great track record of doing the right thing to help the people. Calm down, shut up and get back in line with the other sheep.

Yeah, the country is such a massive shithole. Everyone's life sucks. We're like subsaharan Africa.

See, I can use sarcasm too.

Your point is that things could be worse so we have no right to complain?

No, my point is you are blowing things out of proportion, as usual.

[o.pwuaioc]

What is the proportion, then?

[Hatta]

Nobody here expects to be kidnapped by the military. We're just aware of the track record of the US government. Imprisonment of Eugene Debs, internment of Japanese Americans, COINTELPRO. This law will be used for political purposes, guaranteed. We don't expect to personally be affected, but we understand basic arguments of symmetry("there but for the grace of god go I"). When anyone loses rights, it endangers us all.

[o.pwuaioc]

Nobody here expects to be kidnapped by the military. We're just aware of the track record of the US government. Imprisonment of Eugene Debs, internment of Japanese Americans, COINTELPRO. This law will be used for political purposes, guaranteed. We don't expect to personally be affected, but we understand basic arguments of symmetry("there but for the grace of god go I"). When anyone loses rights, it endangers us all.

Well, Japanese internment camps and COINTELPRO are better than Eugene Debs, calling it a "track record" is really a stretch. No one in this administration (or even the last) was around for either Debs or the internment camps, and COINTELPRO ended before disco was dead.

You'll have to do better than that.

[MrPopo]

What is the proportion, then?

I think Dave has a good perspective. He sees the potential problems and precedents this sets (as do I) and sees that maybe this is something that shouldn't have been passed. But he takes a cool headed approach to it. I think that's what bothers me most about you Hatta; you treat everything the government does that you don't like as a sign of the coming Orwellian state.

[Hatta]

I have a few responses to that. First, I don't think everything the government does that I disagree with is a sign of an orwellian future. I just don't bother bringing those up. We've got to pick our battles right? Second, it would help if the trend for the past 30 years hasn't been overwhelmingly in favor of state power and against individual rights. Third, I have been persecuted by this government for my entire adult life. As far as I'm concerned reality is already dystopian.

When it comes down to it, I would be much, much more accepting of decisions that restrict our rights if there were some sort of debate on the issue...if there were actually a process where meritorious arguments won the day, instead of who has the most cronies. But, instead we live in a country where over 70,000 citizens can petition the president with sound, reasonable, fact based propositions, and simply get ignored. We live in a country where legislators proudly admit that they have no idea what they're doing, and still reject the counsel of technical experts. We live in a country where national security experts from the CIA, FBI, DOD, unanimously agree that these provisions would harm national security, and yet they still become law. That's the most galling aspect of it all.

Since we're sharing what we don't like about each other, what bothers me most about you Popo is how readily you admit that power corrupts, and yet you're still so eager to give people absolute power.

[o.pwuaioc]

Third, I have been persecuted by this government for my entire adult life. As far as I'm concerned reality is already dystopian.

Explain?

[Inazuma]

I have a few responses to that. First, I don't think everything the government does that I disagree with is a sign of an orwellian future. I just don't bother bringing those up. We've got to pick our battles right? Second, it would help if the trend for the past 30 years hasn't been overwhelmingly in favor of state power and against individual rights. Third, I have been persecuted by this government for my entire adult life. As far as I'm concerned reality is already dystopian.

When it comes down to it, I would be much, much more accepting of decisions that restrict our rights if there were some sort of debate on the issue...if there were actually a process where meritorious arguments won the day, instead of who has the most cronies. But, instead we live in a country where over 70,000 citizens can petition the president with sound, reasonable, fact based propositions, and simply get ignored. We live in a country where legislators proudly admit that they have no idea what they're doing, and still reject the counsel of technical experts. We live in a country where national security experts from the CIA, FBI, DOD, unanimously agree that these provisions would harm national security, and yet they still become law. That's the most galling aspect of it all.

Since we're sharing what we don't like about each other, what bothers me most about you Popo is how readily you admit that power corrupts, and yet you're still so eager to give people absolute power.

I loved reading this post and completely agree. You rock.

[MrPopo]

When it comes down to it, I would be much, much more accepting of decisions that restrict our rights if there were some sort of debate on the issue...if there were actually a process where meritorious arguments won the day, instead of who has the most cronies.

That would require the entire country to have a level of intelligence far surpassing what they have on average. People are not engaged in politics beyond what they see on the news. And I don't blame them; most of what goes on in the political arena doesn't affect them on a day-to-day basis.

But, instead we live in a country where over 70,000 citizens can petition the president with sound, reasonable, fact based propositions, and simply get ignored.

0.023% of the population. If I was running a country I'd ignore them too. Plus, you're assuming they did get ignored, and it wasn't that he saw the proposal, thought it was stupid, and moved on without responding.

We live in a country where legislators proudly admit that they have no idea what they're doing, and still reject the counsel of technical experts.

Oh, I'll agree here. But I think that's endemic of the population. They keep getting reelected because the voters seem to prefer an "everyman", instead of someone who actually knows what the hell they're doing.

We live in a country where national security experts from the CIA, FBI, DOD, unanimously agree that these provisions would harm national security, and yet they still become law. That's the most galling aspect of it all.

What's the point of having a president if he only does what other people say? At the end of the day he has to make calls based on his own judgement.

Since we're sharing what we don't like about each other, what bothers me most about you Popo is how readily you admit that power corrupts, and yet you're still so eager to give people absolute power.

They already have it. They've had it for centuries. I don't see this as a change in the status quo.