Anyone switching to a credit union with what's going on?

[o.pwuaioc]

J T, Inazuma: at this point I think it's fair there's no changing his mind, since at points and times he repeats what has been debunked already, or uses logic that has already been shown to be flawed. So long as we can clear up certain uncertainties for others, we'll still be doing good.

[Inazuma]

J T, Inazuma: at this point I think it's fair there's no changing his mind, since at points and times he repeats what has been debunked already, or uses logic that has already been shown to be flawed. So long as we can clear up certain uncertainties for others, we'll still be doing good.

I can't help but be extremely bothered by someone like that. Doing what's best and caring for others is so important to me. Even though I believe that most people are fucking idiots, I still want to help them. Even when my helpful advice gets misunderstood, I don't want to give up.

I have written to various congressmen about many different issues, trying to help prevent new bullshit laws from being approved. I sign petitions. I donate money to organizations who fight for our freedom. I try my best to boycott companies who are doing harm. I'm not just talking about video games here. I act the exact same way for everything else.

I'm only one person, but I do what I can to help improve things. I will gladly make personal sacrifices to help others. This world is corrupt and things need to change. Let's fix our shit now before it gets even worse. The protesters who are out there risking their safety have my respect and support.

[MrPopo]

That doesn't invalidate my point. The issue isn't that companies are taking advantage of loopholes. The issue is that the loopholes exist. So take your protests to the people that create the loopholes, not the ones who benefit from the loopholes.

You've had a "don't hate the player, hate the game" attitude throughout much of this thread. While I agree that we should also go after the government institutions that allow the tax loopholes to exist and that poorly regulate the financial district, there is a problem in blaming it all on "the game" because the top "players" are using their winnings to change the rules of the game so that they continue to benefit at the detriment to everyone else.

This is a fair point, but at the same time I don't see what the protesters hope to accomplish, then. "Please, Mr. Big Bank, stop leveraging your resources to cut the best deal for yourself." That sounds like a doomed activity to me. I'd say you'd be better off by having all the protesters pooling their money together and playing the game themselves so that they can enact the same kind of change that the current players can.

In the past ten years, the average American rate of savings hit zero, and some researchers believe it even went negative.

I won't call you out on the source of the statistic because that statistic needs a lot more to be able to explain it. Why are the savings at zero? In one case the explanation is that the system has been engineered so that savings is impossible, which is a social problem. In another case the explanation is that poor management of credit cards has meant that people have pissed away their ability to save, in which case tough shit.

Just sickening. What is wrong with you?

We've already established I'm a horrible monster. I also buy games from Steam and purchase DLC, and install games with DRM.

J T, Inazuma: at this point I think it's fair there's no changing his mind, since at points and times he repeats what has been debunked already, or uses logic that has already been shown to be flawed. So long as we can clear up certain uncertainties for others, we'll still be doing good.

The only point I can recall where I was debunked was my questioning of whether or not the acts were criminal. It was shown that they were. It was also shown that they were handled through settlements and other options that the justice system has. Just because it wasn't the way you WANTED it to be handled doesn't mean the justice system never got involved. But if you have more examples I'd be happy to address them.

But yes, you're not going to convince me to have sympathy for the faceless masses.

[Flake]

The protesters don't have a clue.

Today's bit of wisdom: Forgive all college debt.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/45040659/ns/us_news-life/

This is a point being made by people who, ostensibly, have earned a degree and should be capable of critical thinking.

But obvious flaws in their logic aside, this kind of thing is exactly what pisses me off about this particular brand of populism. There is no attempt at personal responsibility, cries for reasoned examination of the problem are viewed as betraying one's own class, and half the people protesting don't even know what they are protesting for OR against!

Oh and real quick question? Why should Mr. Popo have to change his mind? The guy might not be agreeing with some of you but there is merit and reason in what he is saying.

[o.pwuaioc]

1 person does not an entire group make. And Mr. Popo shouldn't have to change his mind, but it doesn't look as if anything has sunk in, so no point in trying to convince. An agree to disagree sort of thing, no?

[Flake]

1 person does not an entire group make. And Mr. Popo shouldn't have to change his mind, but it doesn't look as if anything has sunk in, so no point in trying to convince. An agree to disagree sort of thing, no?

...yes. That is true. Not sure what your point is.

[J T]

If people want to see how to resolve this, we should look to Iceland for some pointers. Iceland's banks plunged the entire country into bankruptcy, the people were expected to bail them out, the rest of Europe pressured them to do so, but the people revolted and caused a revolution, held the bankers accountable, and drafted a new constitution.

http://sacsis.org.za/site/article/728.1

[MrPopo]

If people want to see how to resolve this, we should look to Iceland for some pointers. Iceland's banks plunged the entire country into bankruptcy, the people were expected to bail them out, the rest of Europe pressured them to do so, but the people revolted and caused a revolution, held the bankers accountable, and drafted a new constitution.

http://sacsis.org.za/site/article/728.1

That sounds much more effective to me than asking businesses to stop making money so fast.

[Flake]

If people want to see how to resolve this, we should look to Iceland for some pointers. Iceland's banks plunged the entire country into bankruptcy, the people were expected to bail them out, the rest of Europe pressured them to do so, but the people revolted and caused a revolution, held the bankers accountable, and drafted a new constitution.

http://sacsis.org.za/site/article/728.1

Iceland has 33 guns per 100 private citizens.

The US has 88 guns per 100 private citizens.

There can be no thing like a 'little revolution' here in the US. If a revolution ever comes to pass a little debt or banking problems are going to seem quite minor compared to the price that will be paid.

[Hatta]

This is a fair point, but at the same time I don't see what the protesters hope to accomplish, then. "Please, Mr. Big Bank, stop leveraging your resources to cut the best deal for yourself."

The target of wall street is, in all honesty, marketing. I don't think anyone believes OWS itself is going to change the behavior of bankers. What it will do is make the bad behavior of bankers part of the national discourse, and it will make politicians think hard about which side they need to please to get elected.

The only point I can recall where I was debunked was my questioning of whether or not the acts were criminal. It was shown that they were.

Thank you for this acknowledgment.

It was also shown that they were handled through settlements and other options that the justice system has. Just because it wasn't the way you WANTED it to be handled doesn't mean the justice system never got involved.

Justice is blind. The way these crimes have been handled is anything but. If the rich go free for crimes that the poor would be imprisoned for, that's no justice at all.