Are these Ghosts or Just my Imagination?

[Hatta]

I'm pretty sure I understand why, culturally, we treat science and scientists the way we do. I meant to convey that I don't really think it is appropriate.

Yeah, we treat scientists as less important than someone who throws a ball all day. Which makes sense, it's not like science is responsible for doubling our life expectancy, providing convenient modes of travel and communication, and feeding billions of people off of land that would naturally support millions. Or wait, it is.

I don't see any pedestal putting for scientists in our culture. If anything, there is outright hostility towards them. Magical thinking is unfortunately the default for human beings. We languished in pathetic ignorance for milennia, until we realized that empiricism works much better. Today there is barely a single aspect of any of our lives that hasn't been improved by science.

So no, it's not appropriate the way we see scientists in this society. Science is the single most important field of human endeavor, it should be treated as such.

[Limewater]

Sooooo does the Holy Ghost not count?

The Holy Ghost would not be considered a ghost in any sense the word is being used in this thread.

But maybe you were just making a joke. That was kind of funny.

[Limewater]

I don't see any pedestal putting for scientists in our culture. If anything, there is outright hostility towards them. Magical thinking is unfortunately the default for human beings. We languished in pathetic ignorance for milennia, until we realized that empiricism works much better. Today there is barely a single aspect of any of our lives that hasn't been improved by science.

I think you're misreading what I meant. I don't blame you, though. I'm really having a hard time communicating clearly lately.

I mean that people view science as this great paragon of objectivity. Of something is science, it's true. If something is true, it must be science. If something is wrong, it must not be. If you look at the vocal critics of, say, climate change or evolution, they aren't saying that science is wrong or evil. They claim that it's either not science, or the people doing it got the science wrong.

Scientists are biased and subjective like anyone else. Scientists come to wrong conclusions all the time. Gradually (and, suddenly, since I think Kuhn is right about paradigm shifts), things get better, more useful, and potentially closer to real truth.

What do scientists do? They create models based upon observation. George Box tells us that all models are wrong; some some are useful. Science has been tremendously useful for us, no doubt about it. But to take usefulness as an indicator of underlying truth is a mistake, I believe. Classical mechanics models, for example, are pretty severely flawed, but they are unbelievably useful.

[darthmunky]

The problem, for me, is that the people who believe in ghosts, angels, etc. are often (not always) the same people...advocating that we ignore "bogus" scientific warnings about things like climate change

Actually, according to several surveys done on this, Atheists are actually the ones who are more likely to believe in paranormal phenomena like ghosts, bigfoot, aliens, etc.

That sounds like bullshit to me. >_>

It's true. I do not believe that God exists but I believe in everything that's considered to be paranormal/supernatural (ghosts, demons (not hellspawned)), mythological (like centaurs and shit), and all cryptids (Bigfoot, Chupacabra, Loch Ness Monster, etc.). As for aliens, it would be IMPOSSIBLE for them not to exist.

I'm also very into science and scientific studies. The most annoying thing anyone can say is that the universe was created by a God and that we never evolved... Also, did you know cryptozoology and paranormal studies are real forms of science?

[Limewater]

I call bullshit. You're going to have to provide some links.

There's a link above that refutes this (a Gallup poll). I'm pretty sure he was talking out his ass on this point...

I personally find lisalover's claim to be a bit hard to swallow, but I read the article you linked and I'm not really sure that it does directly refute what he said. There wasn't enough detail on the breakdown of particular paranormal beliefs and religious affiliation. For example, any Christian who believed that Jesus Christ healed the sick would have to answer "yes" to the spiritual healing question, even if he does not believe in modern faith healing or mind healing or whatever. That does not necessarily correspond to a belief in other paranormal phenomena.

[Niode]

Also, did you know cryptozoology and paranormal studies are real forms of science?

Except they're not.

[eskil]

The brain is hard-wired to recognize human faces and silhouettes in pretty much any structure.

Also, cryptozoology and paranormal studies are not scientific fields at all.

[Hobie-wan]

Except they're not.

And at the risk of creating further turmoil like when I should have just stayed out of the conversation earlier...

[AppleQueso]

Except they're not.

And at the risk of creating further turmoil like when I should have just stayed out of the conversation earlier...

Thanks a lot you two, now I'm stuck watching tons of random unrelated episodes

[Niode]

I love Bullshit. They're totally one-sided and don't put across a fair argument at all, but it's entertaining as hell and you find it hard to disagree with them.