The Wrestling Thread

[Raging Justice]

1-I don't care what Edge is doing at WWE, at 50 years old I wouldn't consider him a big signing. Such wrestlers are brought in for the star name but realistically, how much can he give? other sport athlete retire mostly pre-40. I am not saying he can't do an addition to AEW or provide entertainment, but I wouldn't say its a big signing. The guy's debut was in 1992 , you can't tell me the current fans are excited to see a wrestler they have been seeing for the past 20-30 years. It was one of the things that killed WCW is that they put a ceiling of old superstar wrestlers that forbade new talent to rise up. I am not saying WWF was smarter, but out of necessity they had to rely on the younger talents which eventually led to Austin and Rock which ultimately saved the company.

2-As for heels, there was an interview with some pro-wrestlers of which was Scott Hall with Larry King where he asked them which is more fun to be Heel or Face and they all agreed that Heel was more fun. Few things to note though:

* Historically the face was the guy who made more money and was more popular. It was Hogan who made a ton of money and not Iron Sheikh.

* The definition of a Heel is someone who the fans hate and want to lose. The trend where the fans actually like the heel and want him to win literally makes him "the face" .

* While its pretty easy to play the nice guy, its pretty difficult to play the heel. A lot of wrestlers attempt hard to be heel but its easy to spot they are faking it. Some wrestlers really know how to play the role and probably is just their true self. To be me, one of the most genuine heel guys I have seen were Scott Hall and Kevin Nash. They really feel like they are corrupt from the inside. On the other hand, some wrestlers have the "gift" of being hated naturally for no reason by the fans. People just do not like them, of which is Alex Wright from WCW mid 90s. Btw , the rock was one of those guys. He actually has a segment where he talks in the ring that he did his best but the fans booed him. I think it was his official heel turn.

Being a heel is easy, being a face is hard. When The Rock first came into WWE he was smiling and being nice and everyone hated him. When he started getting an attitude (acting like a heel), people started liking him. Historically, many wrestlers actually become popular faces AFTER they have been a great heel. Simply being a nice guy doesn't get fans behind you. Look no further than MJF in AEW for proof of that. He's a popular face now and he calls himself The Devil and tells his fans that, "I'm a scumbag, but I'm YOUR scumbag". After months of being a heel, he transitioned to a face. It's hard to just be a face right off the bat and get people to like you. Being a heel is easy, because you have no restrictions, you can do and say whatever you want. It's also much easier to get people to hate you than it is to get them to like you. That's just human nature. it's like when you go on some forum or on reddit and say something nice and get no response. Then go on there and trash a popular movie, or game, or whatever and suddenly you have 200 people coming out the woodwork to tell you what a piece of shit you are. I can get in the ring, insult the local sports team (or whatever city I'm in), call the fans human trash, and talk shit about a popular face, and that's all it takes for the crowd to boo you. Easy as pie.

Wrestling is not a sport. Your age doesn't matter. What matters is if you can still perform and if you're popular (popularity = money), and because it's not a real sport, it is MUCH easier to still perform at a high level even when you're older. You're not REALLY competing against younger guys because it's not a real fight. You just have to be able to keep up with them in the ring. Also, any time WWE brings back an older star, the ratings pop and they get more buys for their PPVs. When they do shows in Saudi Arabia, they bring Goldberg because the Saudi people love him. Fans care more about old guys like The Rock, John Cena, Undertaker, Goldberg, etc. than they do the younger guys. That's just a fact and the numbers back it up. Smackdown just recently popped a big rating with an appearance by the Rock and Cena's been back in WWE recently and much as I hate him, the fans are cheering for him. A lot of hardcore wrestling fans hate seeing older guys, but it's smart business and that's all that companies like WWE and AEW care about.

A lot of people don't realize it, but in the real world, guys get more valuable as they get older, not less valuable. The older guys have a brand, they've established themselves, they have a long resume, they are already loved and respected by fans, and they have way more experience than the younger guys. That's reality. Look at Tom Cruise, he's in the biggest movies in Hollywood right now and he's like 60. Or Keanu Reeves and the John Wick movies which make so much money that they are doing spinoffs like The Continental and want to do a John Wick 5 even though John Wick died in John Wick 4. This is why it's so important for older wrestlers to put over younger talent to help them out, because it's harder for younger guys to really get over the way the older guys already are.

Here's some videos to prove my point:







Look at the reactions for Punk's debut (much as I hate him) in AEW:



Then you got people regularly popping for Sting and Bill Gunn in 2023:





And of course, The Rock:

[Raging Justice]

Man, there are so many women in NXT they could move all of the men to the main roster and WWE would have it's own version of Stardom.

[Reprise]

Dynamite and NXT are going head to head next Tuesday and WWE is throwing everything at it lol.

It's Adam Copeland's debut match for AEW against Paul Heyman appearing, John Cena appearing and Cody Rhodes appearing with a special announcement.

I swear WWE sometimes reeks of desperation. Which is weird for a company who is quite clearly number 1 and it's not even close.

[Raging Justice]

Dynamite and NXT are going head to head next Tuesday and WWE is throwing everything at it lol.

It's Adam Copeland's debut match for AEW against Paul Heyman appearing, John Cena appearing and Cody Rhodes appearing with a special announcement.

I swear WWE sometimes reeks of desperation. Which is weird for a company who is quite clearly number 1 and it's not even close.

It's an ego thing. It seems juvenile, but it is what it is. A lot of that has to come from Vince, I'd like to think that Triple H doesn't care as much.

We've seen how competitive and immature Tony Kahn can be at times too, so it's not just WWE.

[Reprise]

It's competition, so I am not going to be like those AEW diehards who think it's "disgraceful", but I do think it comes across as juvenile.

Tony absolutely does come across as juvenile, petty and silly too with this kind of stuff, but I tend to think underdogs get more of a pass.

I hadn't even twigged that Dynamite was on a Tuesday, so I was confused for a while wondering why I was seeing that John Cena, Cody, Paul Heyman and a bunch of other stars are all booked for next week's NXT.

Speaking of NXT, I completely agree with your thoughts on what AEW should do to improve, including moving Collision to Tuesday nights. And they should get rid of Rampage, as it's pointless.

Collision just got the worst ratings it has ever got this past Saturday. It's just silly. Saturday sucks and they constantly have to battle against WWE PPVs and even have to move the show when they hold their own PPVs on Saturday.

The show is flopping hard since Punk left and it's not even like it was doing amazing whilst he was there. And I don't say that as some Punk fanboy, I say that as someone who can tell it's just turning into Dynamite 2.0 and can tell they don't have a clear direction for the show anymore. It'll just be another rampage in a few months.

[marurun]

1-I don't care what Edge is doing at WWE, at 50 years old I wouldn't consider him a big signing... SNIP

RJ already responded to all this, but even from my perspective, as someone who is not a fan of pro wrestling and only knows some simply because it's in the zeitgeist, this is all quite wrong, a total misread of how wrestling works.

[RCBH928]

@RJ

Some clarification needed to be made.

1-Its harder to get fans to cheer for you as a face, but just like its hard to be a great Face its equally hard to be a great heel. IRS in WWF was heel but did he have an affect as Vince McMahon? I believe Billy Gunn was supposed to be Heel in DX, was he great of a Heel like Jake the Snake?

Again I will say this, if your "Heel" turn makes the fans like you... you are no longer a Heel. The heel is the wrestler fans do not want to win the match and do not cheer for like The Iron Sheikh vs Hogan, and Kane vs Undertaker, and Yokozuna vs Bret Hart.

2-We are not at conflict about popularity of older guys and hiking the number of viewers. A friend of mine who no longer follows any wrestling just sent me a post about Edge debut at AEW. What we are at conflict is that using older wrestlers to be your main stars. You don't want your wrestlers to be wearing T-Shirts or have such a disappointing match like Undertaker vs Golderb . Sting was 54 in that match btw, Undertaker was 55, and Goldberg is 54.

RJ already responded to all this, but even from my perspective, as someone who is not a fan of pro wrestling and only knows some simply because it's in the zeitgeist, this is all quite wrong, a total misread of how wrestling works.

Depends on how you look at it. If you are thinking about a "celebrity" showing up and making skits I agree with you. If you are thinking of making the 50 year old your top star, well, history doesn't agree with you. Again, after the Monday Night Wars was over and in retrospect everyone agrees that part of WCW demise was older wrestlers taking the top positions for themselves not allowing any new comers. WWF made a skit on this in 1996 IIRC. Hogan and Macho Man were 43yrs.

To add to this, its is known that Hogan was being booed in the final years in WWF because fans were tired of seeing him winning all the time and the same fate is faced by John Cena which I heard the WWF purposefully mute the booing fan sounds on TV when he shows up.

[Raging Justice]

This Edge and Christian thing is fascinating. Edge is talking about tag team gold while Christian is focused on the TNT title. Course, there's also the obvious issue of one being a face and one being a heel. I wonder where they are going with this.



AEW has some strong heels right now. Swerve, Christian, Samoa Joe, Jay White, and Don Callis (who exerts his heelish will through other wrestlers). You know what DOESN'T have any strong heels? The women's division. It doesn't have a strong face either. I mean there's Britt, but she's hardly doing anything of note. The division needs more than Britt Baker. I tell you what would light a fire in that division. Britt Baker feuding with Mercedes Mone. Gives those two the mic and watch them make magic. I think Mercedes could make Britt into a better wrestler too as she has much more in ring experience that Britt does. Mercedes has been in the ring with a caliber of wrestler that is far and above most of Britt's opponents.

Natsupoi has now beaten the top women in both Stardom and NJPW. She's leveling up. Tournament is over now and Suzu Suzuki is the winner (at just 21 years old), and it looks like Mariah May is now done with Stardom



























I love this spot (and the camera angle) from AZM's match with Momo Watanabe

[Reprise]

This Edge and Christian thing is fascinating. Edge is talking about tag team gold while Christian is focused on the TNT title. Course, there's also the obvious issue of one being a face and one being a heel. I wonder where they are going with this.

This Edge and Christian thing will be a slow burn, I feel.

It will start with a feud, but I feel it will build slowly over the next 6 months. Edge vs Christian is big money and they won't want to blow their wad prematurely. I can see them slowly building towards it at next year's All In to be honest. Can they keep it interesting that long and resist the urge to do it sooner? I don't know. They can do other things with Edge in the mean time, have him face off with guys like MJF (having a title match at some point makes sense).

Once the feud is blown off, then I guess either Edge will turn heel or Christian will turn face, so they are aligned, and we will get Edge and Christian reunited as a tag team.

I guess how all this plays out also depends on when Christian or Edge plan to retire.

By the way, last night's Dynamite was the second worst rated episode of the year. I expected a bit of an increase for Edge's first Dynamite. Weird.

Edit: NXT also beat them, so expect next week when they go head to head to be a bit of a massacre.

[RCBH928]

This Edge and Christian thing is fascinating. Edge is talking about tag team gold while Christian is focused on the TNT title. Course, there's also the obvious issue of one being a face and one being a heel. I wonder where they are going with this.

I think if AEW could sign Aj Styles and play it right, they can have a nice 3 way thing going between Styles, Christian and Edge. I know Styles is on contract with WWE not sure when it ends , and maybe his deal with WWE is more lucrative for him but career wise I would do my "swan song" in AEW...unless they make me the face of WWE for the next 3 years or something.