Highest quality AV mods (Genesis, SNES, Saturn, N64)

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Loogs
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Highest quality AV mods (Genesis, SNES, Saturn, N64)

Post by Loogs »

My knowledge is limited as far as hardware and video signal modification goes. I've read up on different forums, post after post, but I figure someone might just be able to lay it down as far as possibilities and methods go.

S-video is nice, but how about going the extra mile/miles? I've read about buying SCART converters (SCART to component or RGB to component) and outputting component on the Genesis model 1, SNES model 1, Saturn model 2, and the N64. What is the basic idea of approaching this and achieving component quality video on these US systems with a US HDTV (I'd rather not mess around with any VGA converters).

Also, I've read about JRok's most-excellent RGB encoders
http://www.jrok.com/hardware/RGBv4/index.html
Installing these would eliminate the need for an expensive converter, and would be my primary choice (not dealing with SCART cables, converters, etc).

Can anybody lay it on me what's possible for these 4 systems, and does anybody know of anyone who might be able to perform the installation of some JRok encoders?

How far can I take my gaming, lmao, is essentially what I'm after; achieving emulator-like picture quality with a console. I don't know if component would clear up the jaggies on the N64, though. I'm always down with using my trusty CRT :D
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d123456
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Re: Highest quality AV mods (Genesis, SNES, Saturn, N64)

Post by d123456 »

very debatable, but you might want to mod your tv to accept RGB (not sure how, but it should be possible since every crt is based on RGB I think), so you can just buy RGB scart cables for your consoles. I'm not sure, but perhaps the N64 does not output rgb and that system would have to be modded.
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elvis
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Re: Highest quality AV mods (Genesis, SNES, Saturn, N64)

Post by elvis »

To the human eye there should be no discernible difference between RGB and YUV/YPrPb (component). If your TV doesn't support RGB, the JROK converters (or anyone else's) should be fine to use for decent picture quality. I know plenty of arcade collectors who use them to get arcade PCBs working on a standard TV (as opposed to using a supergun, which is much the same thing from a video point of view).

The JROk units have gain adjust on the RGB lines, so you shouldn't have to mod the signal lines with the usual 220uF cap and 75 ohm resistor pair. It should pretty much just be a direct wire straight off the RGBHV outputs from the main video encoder chip straight to the JROK unit.

I'm currently part way through converting all of my consoles for RGB output to arcade monitors, and the picture quality is amazing. Definitely recommended.
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Re: Highest quality AV mods (Genesis, SNES, Saturn, N64)

Post by Loogs »

How about an XRGB upscan converter? I'm not sure about the compatibility with US systems/TVs. Apparently, it acts as a soft mod for the original signal (composite or S-video) to output in a sharper VGA, and can act as a hub for plugging in all consoles.

Logically looking at it, installing an RGB to component encoder (JRok) would be the simplest method, but also most expensive. Finding someone I could work with for the installations would also be a challenge.

I guess we can just keep throwing ideas around?
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Re: Highest quality AV mods (Genesis, SNES, Saturn, N64)

Post by elvis »

d123456 wrote:very debatable, but you might want to mod your tv to accept RGB (not sure how, but it should be possible since every crt is based on RGB I think)

A word of caution: the voltage inside a CRT can get up to 30,000V in some places. Soldering to the chassis (the name for the driving board inside the TV) to provide yourself with RGB inputs is doable, but I urge anyone considering this option who has not worked on or inside monitors and TVs before to be very careful.
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Re: Highest quality AV mods (Genesis, SNES, Saturn, N64)

Post by elvis »

Loogs wrote:How about an XRGB upscan converter? I'm not sure about the compatibility with US systems/TVs. Apparently, it acts as a soft mod for the original signal (composite or S-video) to output in a sharper VGA, and can act as a hub for plugging in all consoles.

OK, lets get a few things clear first:

For starters, you can't get signal quality for free. Plugging an S-Video connector into a XRGB (or any other upscan converter) doesn't gain quality. Your output signal is only as good as the weakest link in your chain. If S-Video is the weakest link, then that's the quality you'll get out of the VGA output. There's no "soft mod" or any such nonsense happening there.

All the XRGB does is double-scan the signal. So for every line it gets via input, it pushes two lines as output (simplified explanation for standard PAL/NTSC progressive scan low res modes - interlaced modes are slightly different, but the idea is much the same). You can't magically make the signal better just by double-scanning.

It's like taking a low-res image and resizing it in a graphics program like GIMP or Photoshop. Scaling the image doesn't add resolution, it just scales pixels. Likewise if the original image was blurry and ugly, the resulting image will be just as bad.

If you want good quality signals out of your consoles, you need to take the best, native signal it can produce. There's no magic way to take a crap signal and make it better ("shit in, shit out" as they say). For most third generation and younger non-HD consoles, that means RGB, falling back to S-Video in a pinch.

A lot of these consoles will allow you to get RGB straight out of their multi A/V outs at the back. For my own setup I've made a generic RGB/SCART plug for my arcade monitor so I can just buy a SCART cable for most of my consoles and get output directly that way. For older consoles that didn't offer the RGB out, there's usually some way to hijack the signal off the main video encoder chip and add your own connectors directly.

In order of quality (worst to best) you are looking at:

1) RF (arial connectors) - All video and audio signals mashed in together and transmitted over radio frequency. Lots of interference, and ugly.

2) Composite (typically yellow RCA "A/V" plugs). Video is transmitted as Luminance (Y), or the brightness (i.e.: the black and white image, just how black and white TVs worked), Chrominance (C), the colour part, and finally the sync signal. These signals are sent down the same wire. Audio is on separate wires which makes the signal much better than RF.

3) S-Video. The Luminance (Y) + sync, and Chrominance (C) are split into dedicated cables, giving less interference in each signal. The end result is a noticeably better than composite. Some consider this a type of "component" cable (as the signals are broken into components), but I consider it somewhere in the middle.

4) Component. And here's the silly part. In marketing language, component is how they refer to YPrPb cables. Technically speaking anything that breaks a signal into components is a component cable, but to avoid confusion I'll stick with the marketing name. Signals are broken up into Luminance (Y) + Sync, Chrominance shift from red (Pr) and Chrominance shift from blue (Pb). The end result is a signal that requires much less bandwidth than RGBHV, but should give a mathematically identical signal quality. This compression technique (called YUV or HSV in colour space terms) is also used in other systems like JPEG and MPEG compression (which is partly why it's been so readily adopted by media systems, as going form DVD to YPrPb meant less effort). The upside to component is that it can carry both low def and high def signals easier than RGB. The downside is it requires an encoder/decoder chip pair in order to do it fast enough to be considered realtime. And not many older consoles support it.

5) RGB (also RGBHV, i.e.: Red, Green, Blue, Horizontal Sync, Vertical Sync - and sometimes the H+V are combined into a "composite sync"). It's worth noting that "RGB" can be transmitted over many different sorts of cables. SCART is a common one for low resolution (15KHz) RGB (which uses composite sync by default). High res requires better cabling, and is usually left to VGA cables (which by default requires separate H and V syncs). Some older systems sent RGBHV over BNC connectors as well (anyone who did CAD in the 90's will remember BNC connectors on those giant fixed-frequency monitors). There are plenty of proprietary RGB connectors as well from the likes of Apple and Sun, which are all highly annoying if you need to use them with generic monitors.

Technically speaking YPrPb and RGB give the same quality signal. However I prefer RGB for consoles as it's easier to work with due to being the "native" system for monitors themselves, meaning it's generally very easy to hack into a good quality arcade or broadcast monitor.

6) All digital signals. DVI, HDMI, etc all fall in this category. But they don't make sense for analogue displays like CRTs. I have seen CRTs with DVI ports on them, but for the added cost you're not getting any benefit (unless your device ONLY has digital out, and you're hell bent on using an analogue display, but I can't think of any device with only digital out).
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D.D.D.
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Re: Highest quality AV mods (Genesis, SNES, Saturn, N64)

Post by D.D.D. »

elvis wrote:
d123456 wrote:very debatable, but you might want to mod your tv to accept RGB (not sure how, but it should be possible since every crt is based on RGB I think)

A word of caution: the voltage inside a CRT can get up to 30,000V in some places. Soldering to the chassis (the name for the driving board inside the TV) to provide yourself with RGB inputs is doable, but I urge anyone considering this option who has not worked on or inside monitors and TVs before to be very careful.


I second the caution: back in my IT days, a coworker literally fried himself opening a CRT monitor and is currently pushing up the daisies.
Stick with modding your consoles...
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Loogs
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Re: Highest quality AV mods (Genesis, SNES, Saturn, N64)

Post by Loogs »

Thank you all for the insightful input. Yeah, I don't think I would even want to begin to pop open a CRT, I've heard similar stories. So, from everything I've gathered, the possibilities are...

NES front loader: Supports RGB, but does not output; requires hard mod
SNES model 1: Supports RGB, outputs through MultiAV; requires SCART cable & converter
Genesis model 1: Supports RGB, outputs through AV; requires SCART cable & converter
Saturn model 2: Supports RGB, outputs through AV; requires SCART cable & converter
N64: Supports RGB, but does not output; requires hard mod
*still on the hunt for a GameCube component cable ("digital AV" as they called it lmao) which were only made by Nintendo*

Technically, I would only need 1 SCART to YUV (component) converter and respective SCART cables for the majority. NES would need a special pinout installed, and the N64 would just need a reroute wiring to the MultiAV (and then use SNES's SCART cable).

I'm going to begin acquiring the SCART cables and a good converter. Many pictures and comparisons to follow! I think I can handle the N64 reroute, but if anybody is down for modding the NES (either SCART pinout or a JRok), please PM me!!
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Re: Highest quality AV mods (Genesis, SNES, Saturn, N64)

Post by Loogs »

As far as the SCART carrying the audio as well, either a switch box or splitter configuration would be needed. I've seen in-line stereo converters but running that prior to the video converter could hinder the video quality (since it's not powered). I think the best bet would just be a splitter, with one for the video converter and one for the audio converter.

edit: found this little beauty with unmodified audio

Image

http://www.js-technology.com/product_info.php?cPath=22&products_id=36&osCsid=35973e5781ef89bdddeabc78400f535e
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Re: Highest quality AV mods (Genesis, SNES, Saturn, N64)

Post by Ziggy »

D.D.D. wrote:
elvis wrote:
d123456 wrote:very debatable, but you might want to mod your tv to accept RGB (not sure how, but it should be possible since every crt is based on RGB I think)

A word of caution: the voltage inside a CRT can get up to 30,000V in some places. Soldering to the chassis (the name for the driving board inside the TV) to provide yourself with RGB inputs is doable, but I urge anyone considering this option who has not worked on or inside monitors and TVs before to be very careful.


I second the caution: back in my IT days, a coworker literally fried himself opening a CRT monitor and is currently pushing up the daisies.
Stick with modding your consoles...


And I'm gonna have to thrid it. Even if the monitor has been off for months, it can still hold electricity in it. I've read that it can build up a secondary charge when it is unplugged, too. They actually sell discharging tools for CRTs. I think I saw them on Happ.com, but I'm sure you can get them from any place that deals parts like these. One helpful page I found:

http://www.peachpit.com/articles/articl ... 4&seqNum=2

Scroll down to "safety" and then "discharge".

So wow, you know some one that actually died from it? That's horrible. Some one was telling me about how a guy he knew got electrocuted and his arms flung so hard that the screw driver he was holding ended up in the wall on the other side of the room.
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