I'm having an issue with a web design company that may end in court, But maybe one of you guys can give me an opinion.
My partners and I went to meet with a guy at this company (company is a stretch since the little office looked like they were in the process of moving in or out) and he quoted a price for the entire job and said it would be no problem, We all shook hands and said we would be in contact with him and that it sounded like a good deal. Fast forward almost ten months later and we have had everything from excuses (lost the password to access the website, Busy etc.) to the latest which is an invoice for half the amount we were quoted, Now the secretary is telling us through many phone calls that until we pay the invoice nothing else will be done and that they do this with all "New customers" but this was not mentioned when they said the work would be done all those months ago.
The only "work" done to our website has been
1. Took the former web creators name from the bottom of the site (each page)
2. Changed one price (example $2 to $3)
3. Put a counter on the site that supposedly links to our email (has not worked at all)
Can someone tell me how hard the above would be to do and what a fair price would be for the work? We have signed no contract with this company and only had their word that the work would be done. The things done to the site in the months they had access are less than 5% of the total promised work and we have had an incomplete site the whole time.
Thanks for any advice!
Anyone do web design?
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Flak Beard
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Re: Anyone do web design?
I'm not web expert per say, but I do graphic design and work with web people. I'm not sure about the "counter linking", but those few things shouldn't of took very long at all to do. The first two could easily be done in a half hour or so. I would find a new web company to work with and not pay these guys a dime.NeoRage wrote:I'm having an issue with a web design company that may end in court, But maybe one of you guys can give me an opinion.
My partners and I went to meet with a guy at this company (company is a stretch since the little office looked like they were in the process of moving in or out) and he quoted a price for the entire job and said it would be no problem, We all shook hands and said we would be in contact with him and that it sounded like a good deal. Fast forward almost ten months later and we have had everything from excuses (lost the password to access the website, Busy etc.) to the latest which is an invoice for half the amount we were quoted, Now the secretary is telling us through many phone calls that until we pay the invoice nothing else will be done and that they do this with all "New customers" but this was not mentioned when they said the work would be done all those months ago.
The only "work" done to our website has been
1. Took the former web creators name from the bottom of the site (each page)
2. Changed one price (example $2 to $3)
3. Put a counter on the site that supposedly links to our email (has not worked at all)
Can someone tell me how hard the above would be to do and what a fair price would be for the work? We have signed no contract with this company and only had their word that the work would be done. The things done to the site in the months they had access are less than 5% of the total promised work and we have had an incomplete site the whole time.
Thanks for any advice!
Re: Anyone do web design?
We REALLY do not want to pay them anything, But the lady is almost threatening legal action without actually saying it. We had the website budgeted and had every intention in paying them for the job when it was done, But not until it was done.
If you did those things for someone how much would you charge?
Can they really do anything if we have no written contract and nothing was signed?
If you did those things for someone how much would you charge?
Can they really do anything if we have no written contract and nothing was signed?
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lordofduct
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Re: Anyone do web design?
I'm not particularly Web Design. Though I do code in Actionscript 3 for a lot of my jobs. I am a freelance programmer instead. But it's about the same thing.
First, go over ALL material you received from them... if they say they gave you any information that you don't have, get it from them and verify if you have or haven't seen said document and document when that you received these articles post "mid-invoice".
Now a mid-invoice is very common. Some people do this as a verify payment. Personally my practice is 20% up front, the other 80% upon completion for any job quoted over 100 dollars.
BUT, I inform my customer of it immediately! Not just immediately, but warn them off it constantly through out any pre-project discussion. I want to make 100% sure they understand everything about how I charge them, what I charge them, how they'll receive the finished project and everything. No room for them to try and stick me...
Now if you find nothing that says they informed you of this practice of theirs. They have NO case against you. You legitimately assumed that the job was to be paid in full upon completion. It's a no brainer case that could easily be won... and they probably wouldn't waste their time on because the most they could even make is for the services rendered, and if that is all the work done... well that's what? 20 dollars? if that!?
The thing is, nor do you have a case against them. You can of course report them to the "Better Business Bureau", but that is about it. You haven't paid anything to them as of yet so you have really no loss. There is nothing to sue them for... this is civil court I'm assuming... I haven't heard you say anything they did that was criminal.
So after receiving any documents, if any, I'd then write up a letter to them (on real paper) explaining your reasons for not paying (you were not informed, no tangible work was rendered, and you are not pleased with the quality of service they've performed) and that you will be going else where for the job to be done. Then sign it and mail it to them. Also email them a copy as well, marking that they will be receiving a printed version in the mail.
Document this as well for your own records.
And move the hell on.
OH and this is all assuming some contract was signed between you. If there wasn't, it's an even bigger slam dunk. Just email them to dick off and move on.
Oh and if they DO send you the document that does say they do a mid-invoice of some sort. Make sure it is a page you signed OR initialed. If your signature or initial is not on the page that says ANYTHING about any payments to be made... it doesn't count! There is no way to prove that page was supplied to you in the first place.
And changin ALL secure info they may have to access your content (like your ftp account, SQL databases, etc). You don't want them fuckin' with your stuff and then pushing the blaim on "we were just doing our job, it was in development at that point, that's why it isn't functioning."
In the future you might want to give any web designer restricted access to your secure stuff.
For instance with my customers I avoid to the fullest extent possible having to access their website in any manner. I inform them any secure specifics they need added to it should be added by them. (say it is a PHP script accessing their SQL server and passing a dynamically constructed XML document to Flash. I'll write the code and place dummy code where they should put the username and pw).
Another suggestion I make to my customer in the case I do need to access secure info, like say log into their website via FTP. I ask them to create me a non-administrator account to access it through which can be deleted afterward. I mean come on, a lot of people use the same variation of password all over the place. Maybe a few characters off. Now that I know their FTP account, it wouldn't be to hard to figure out their PayPal or ebay info either. Or hack their email accounts on that site and filch it.
Not to say I would... but come on, some one hires me to program for them, they obviously don't know how and should assume the worst of me if they don't have any clue who I am!
First, go over ALL material you received from them... if they say they gave you any information that you don't have, get it from them and verify if you have or haven't seen said document and document when that you received these articles post "mid-invoice".
Now a mid-invoice is very common. Some people do this as a verify payment. Personally my practice is 20% up front, the other 80% upon completion for any job quoted over 100 dollars.
BUT, I inform my customer of it immediately! Not just immediately, but warn them off it constantly through out any pre-project discussion. I want to make 100% sure they understand everything about how I charge them, what I charge them, how they'll receive the finished project and everything. No room for them to try and stick me...
Now if you find nothing that says they informed you of this practice of theirs. They have NO case against you. You legitimately assumed that the job was to be paid in full upon completion. It's a no brainer case that could easily be won... and they probably wouldn't waste their time on because the most they could even make is for the services rendered, and if that is all the work done... well that's what? 20 dollars? if that!?
The thing is, nor do you have a case against them. You can of course report them to the "Better Business Bureau", but that is about it. You haven't paid anything to them as of yet so you have really no loss. There is nothing to sue them for... this is civil court I'm assuming... I haven't heard you say anything they did that was criminal.
So after receiving any documents, if any, I'd then write up a letter to them (on real paper) explaining your reasons for not paying (you were not informed, no tangible work was rendered, and you are not pleased with the quality of service they've performed) and that you will be going else where for the job to be done. Then sign it and mail it to them. Also email them a copy as well, marking that they will be receiving a printed version in the mail.
Document this as well for your own records.
And move the hell on.
OH and this is all assuming some contract was signed between you. If there wasn't, it's an even bigger slam dunk. Just email them to dick off and move on.
Oh and if they DO send you the document that does say they do a mid-invoice of some sort. Make sure it is a page you signed OR initialed. If your signature or initial is not on the page that says ANYTHING about any payments to be made... it doesn't count! There is no way to prove that page was supplied to you in the first place.
And changin ALL secure info they may have to access your content (like your ftp account, SQL databases, etc). You don't want them fuckin' with your stuff and then pushing the blaim on "we were just doing our job, it was in development at that point, that's why it isn't functioning."
In the future you might want to give any web designer restricted access to your secure stuff.
For instance with my customers I avoid to the fullest extent possible having to access their website in any manner. I inform them any secure specifics they need added to it should be added by them. (say it is a PHP script accessing their SQL server and passing a dynamically constructed XML document to Flash. I'll write the code and place dummy code where they should put the username and pw).
Another suggestion I make to my customer in the case I do need to access secure info, like say log into their website via FTP. I ask them to create me a non-administrator account to access it through which can be deleted afterward. I mean come on, a lot of people use the same variation of password all over the place. Maybe a few characters off. Now that I know their FTP account, it wouldn't be to hard to figure out their PayPal or ebay info either. Or hack their email accounts on that site and filch it.
Not to say I would... but come on, some one hires me to program for them, they obviously don't know how and should assume the worst of me if they don't have any clue who I am!
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lordofduct
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Re: Anyone do web design?
the last of that post was some suggestions to you when dealing with some contractor... another suggestion now that I think of it.
Check out their website.
I have a public blog for a website. It wouldn't be hard for anyone to go on it and say what they'd like about me via comments. Of course that could be deleted by me, but still it's better then nothing.
On top of that my websites name and avatar is my reputation. Anyone looking for me to do work can easily google "lordofduct" and find out all kinds of stuff about me when it comes to my online reputation. I'm all over the web under this avatar, they can find out how I interact both personally and professionally on websites from RacketBoy to Microsoft, XNAForums, Actionscript.org, FlashKit, MySpace, FaceBook, etc...
They're a web designer... if they can't be found on the internet... that's just WEIRD!
Check out their website.
I have a public blog for a website. It wouldn't be hard for anyone to go on it and say what they'd like about me via comments. Of course that could be deleted by me, but still it's better then nothing.
On top of that my websites name and avatar is my reputation. Anyone looking for me to do work can easily google "lordofduct" and find out all kinds of stuff about me when it comes to my online reputation. I'm all over the web under this avatar, they can find out how I interact both personally and professionally on websites from RacketBoy to Microsoft, XNAForums, Actionscript.org, FlashKit, MySpace, FaceBook, etc...
They're a web designer... if they can't be found on the internet... that's just WEIRD!
Re: Anyone do web design?
Thank you VERY much for the info lordofduct!
When we met with him he did not mention anything of a mid-invoice or money up front either, We were all put under the understanding that we owed a certain amount upon completion of the job. No papers were signed by anyone and only business cards were exchanged. I have wanted to tell them off for awhile now, But being a decent person I had to be absolutely sure of my stance in this and also made sure that they had no intention of completing the job without the invoice being paid.
Maybe I'll have better luck next time
. Thanks again for your advice.
When we met with him he did not mention anything of a mid-invoice or money up front either, We were all put under the understanding that we owed a certain amount upon completion of the job. No papers were signed by anyone and only business cards were exchanged. I have wanted to tell them off for awhile now, But being a decent person I had to be absolutely sure of my stance in this and also made sure that they had no intention of completing the job without the invoice being paid.
Maybe I'll have better luck next time
. Thanks again for your advice.