Help buying a Sony CRT for 240p, 480i / 576i (PAL) for N64

[jpmad4it]

Hi all,

I'm Jonathan from the UK, and I've recently acquired an N64 to re-live some of the gaming I enjoyed in my youth, and so I have joined the forum!

My first post (as probably many others have done) is regarding which CRT TV I should buy. I am looking at the Sony Trinitron range.

I've tried the following on my 3 HDTV's and the picture quality is awful:

- RF
- composite
- gamecube method (composite leads plugged into scart adapter)

None of my TV's have s-video either

Out of all the above options the RF gave the best quality picture on all of my TV's!!! What?!?

Anyway, I've been informed that most upscalers are rather temperamental with PAL N64's and so its not really worth spending the money on one. And PAL N64's cannot have the RBG mod applied to them (not sure if that's 100% true, even so I don't really want to try and mod my console).

So after exhausting the above options I've decided to get a Sony Trinitron TV that accepts s-video. I am aware that PAL N64's can be temperamental with s-video cables, but I have found a guy that mod's s-video cables so that they work with PAL systems.

I'm wondering whether to go with an older Sony Trinitron model (not HD or WEGA) as some people have reported that the geometry is often better, and horizontal scrolling games on a flat screen CRT can look a bit wonky. People have reported that the newer Wega's with the "High Scan" feature digitise the signal and introduce artefacts in the picture. Is this true?

Also, I've been told to look for something that is no larger than 27inches, with 50/60Hz and not 100Hz as the image blurs badly on the 100Hz models when the screen moves?

People I have spoke to are pointing at a good Trinitron from the early to mid 90's, but others disagree and say that the geometry issue can be fixed on a WEGA through the service menus (not sure I want to play around with this though).

Whast are the general opinions on the above comments? Are the Wega's and HD range just as good (if not better) for N64 gaming? Can anyone point out any UK model numbers so that I can keep an eye out for them?

Do I go for:
- a non HD, non-flat screen Trinitron,
- an older model Wega without the "high scan" feature
- a newer Wega FD Trinitron and fix the issues through the service menu
- a TV above 27" inches?
- 50Hz or 100Hz?

I am leaning towards the following spec's:
- 100Hz
- S-video and composite inputs
- SDTV
- FD Trinitron WEGA (are these classed as a SDTV or a HDTV - I'm unsure. If a particular HD CRT can handle 240p and 480i in a good manner, then I am happy with that).
- Flat screen
- 4:3 ratio screen (with auto 16:9 enhancement)

If anyone could help me find a model that matches my requirements I would be very grateful. My main confusion is whether the FD Trinitron Wega models can handle 240p / 480i / 576i signals and give a good picture quality. I need a CRT that can do this so that I can enjoy my retro N64 gaming, and it would be a bonus if I could use it for other HD applications.

Sorry for all the questions, it's just that I have become very confused recently with all the reading I have been doing. If anyone can point out the best way to go for N64 gaming (bearing in mind I have a PAL N64) I'd really appreciate the help.

Please someone tell me what to doooooooooooo

regards
Jp

[theclaw]

A CRT will work best. Best if SD with s-video input at minimum. If not SCART.

Though really PAL N64 just isn't good enough for enthusiasts. You'd have to put up with 50hz, and it got a mere four distinct exclusive games.

F-1 World Grand Prix II
F1 Racing Championship
Premier Manager 64
Taz Express

[jpmad4it]

Damn. Just bought the pal n64 recently so I guess it'll have to do for now.

If anyone can help with the specifics of the CRT TV and which way to go that would be great.

[CRTGAMER]

Also, I've been told to look for something that is no larger than 27inches, with 50/60Hz and not 100Hz as the image blurs badly on the 100Hz models when the screen moves?

If anyone can help with the specifics of the CRT TV and which way to go that would be great.

Check out my CRT vs LCD signature link. You can go bigger then 27" and a 100Hz HD CRT will display all the consoles just fine. I use a WEGA 32" HD CRT.

Why is this Thread in the Nintendo Section?

[dogman91]

Keep in mind if it's an HD CRT 240p will be upscaled and have no scanlines eg. everything looks blocky/pixelated. The only difference the HD will make with your N64 stuff is that. There's also the possibility of lag as the HDTVs have to process the image; conversely the SD ones don't upscale! 480i might especially be an issue with that as it's interlaced and needs both lines to "flicker" before it's able to produce the non-interlaced upscaled image (to a progressive scan mode, ex. the HDTV converting the 480i to 480p for display). Retro consoles are mostly 240p though which is progressive so it SHOULD be fine for HDTVs; some N64 games with the expansion pack do however have 480i like some Star Wars games and the menus of Pokemon Stadium for example. Same with some Playstation 1 games. My suggestion is stick with a standard definition CRT for all your retro stuff and a separate HDTV for everything else if you want maximum quality/aesthetics... the scanlines makes everything beautiful IMHO and it does it without taking anything away from the picture quality too.

I have a 36" WEGA and yes the horizontal geometry is curving near the bottom and top but its easy to ignore; that's just me though, you may hate it! It's less noticeable with very detailed graphics, like say a 32-bit or even 16-bit game rather than a straight horizontal line in an NES game. 3D games shouldn't even be a problem with it. The quality is amazing with the CRT so this is easy for me to look past in general.

You may find it to be hard to find an exact TV model you want just searching on Craigslist and the like; just a heads up! The WEGAs are in a huge supply though and they're amazing IMO. The FV310 model has a high voltage regulator which apparently reduces the horizontal geometry issues, but I've never been able to track it down locally (I'm in the US though so it's possible it's called something else in the UK).

In a nutshell even with these slight issues it will destroy any LCD TV in terms of picture quality! Another side benefit is that CRTs have a high refresh rate which means no horrible mandatory motion blur inherent with all LCDs.

Definitely get S-Video for your N64. You may also want to look into CRTs which have component inputs to hook up an RGB to component transcoder as well.

As for 100hz versus 50/60hz, I can't say I know very much about that but I'm pretty sure I have a 60hz with my SD-only CRT as nothing blurs. This sounds like the picture would be more jittery with a CRT though (and still detailed; just not "smooth"), while blurring on an LCD, but I haven't looked into this aspect very much.

edit: btw, these links may be useful to you for info on scanlines/CRTs in general; they were a great help to me when I was first thinking about getting a CRT for retro consoles:
http://nfgworld.com/mb/thread/660-Aspec ... n-Displays
http://scanlines.hazard-city.de/



edit2: Hi-Scan is only with the HD models according to Wikipedia.

[jpmad4it]

Also, I've been told to look for something that is no larger than 27inches, with 50/60Hz and not 100Hz as the image blurs badly on the 100Hz models when the screen moves?

If anyone can help with the specifics of the CRT TV and which way to go that would be great.

Check out my CRT vs LCD signature link. You can go bigger then 27" and a 100Hz HD CRT will display all the consoles just fine. I use a WEGA 32" HD CRT.

Wow nice thread! Very interesting read! Picked up some useful points from there, thanks.

Keep in mind if it's an HD CRT 240p will be upscaled and have no scanlines eg. everything looks blocky/pixelated. The only difference the HD will make with your N64 stuff is that. There's also the possibility of lag as the HDTVs have to process the image; conversely the SD ones don't upscale! 480i might especially be an issue with that as it's interlaced and needs both lines to "flicker" before it's able to produce the non-interlaced upscaled image (to a progressive scan mode, ex. the HDTV converting the 480i to 480p for display). Retro consoles are mostly 240p though which is progressive so it SHOULD be fine for HDTVs; some N64 games with the expansion pack do however have 480i like some Star Wars games and the menus of Pokemon Stadium for example. Same with some Playstation 1 games. My suggestion is stick with a standard definition CRT for all your retro stuff and a separate HDTV for everything else if you want maximum quality/aesthetics... the scanlines makes everything beautiful IMHO and it does it without taking anything away from the picture quality too.

I have a 36" WEGA and yes the horizontal geometry is curving near the bottom and top but its easy to ignore; that's just me though, you may hate it! It's less noticeable with very detailed graphics, like say a 32-bit or even 16-bit game rather than a straight horizontal line in an NES game. 3D games shouldn't even be a problem with it. The quality is amazing with the CRT so this is easy for me to look past in general.

You may find it to be hard to find an exact TV model you want just searching on Craigslist and the like; just a heads up! The WEGAs are in a huge supply though and they're amazing IMO. The FV310 model has a high voltage regulator which apparently reduces the horizontal geometry issues, but I've never been able to track it down locally (I'm in the US though so it's possible it's called something else in the UK).

In a nutshell even with these slight issues it will destroy any LCD TV in terms of picture quality! Another side benefit is that CRTs have a high refresh rate which means no horrible mandatory motion blur inherent with all LCDs.

Definitely get S-Video for your N64. You may also want to look into CRTs which have component inputs to hook up an RGB to component transcoder as well.

As for 100hz versus 50/60hz, I can't say I know very much about that but I'm pretty sure I have a 60hz with my SD-only CRT as nothing blurs. This sounds like the picture would be more jittery with a CRT though (and still detailed; just not "smooth"), while blurring on an LCD, but I haven't looked into this aspect very much.

edit: btw, these links may be useful to you for info on scanlines/CRTs in general; they were a great help to me when I was first thinking about getting a CRT for retro consoles:
http://nfgworld.com/mb/thread/660-Aspec ... n-Displays
http://scanlines.hazard-city.de/



edit2: Hi-Scan is only with the HD models according to Wikipedia.

Great reply, thank you for the effort! I am not going to be using the TV for anything but N64 gaming, so I now know that I want the following:

I want to keep scanlines
I want 4:3 (not 16:9)
I want Non-HD
It needs s-video and if possible component inputs.

Basically, I know what I want to get, I just don't know which of the UK Sony TV's match these specifications.

There are a few I have seen but I don't know if they match my 4 requirements above:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/230842765177
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/320970621677
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/261088663312
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/180960068635

I really don't know whether these are HDTV's or SDTV's, and whether they are 4:3 or 16:9. The only thing I am certain of is that they have s-video input.

You can find these models on the sony.co.uk website and read the manuals like I did, but it still didn't help me with HD / SD and 4:3 / 16:9 confusion
http://www.sony.co.uk/support/en/hub/CRT

24-bit: Do you mind me asking the model number of your Sony Wega TV?

[dogman91]

Looking into it it appears 16:9 TVs are way more common in the UK with Wegas than 4:3. I'm not sure which are HD and which aren't. In the US it's the opposite; most are 4:3 that aren't HD.

Maybe someone from the UK can chime in on this and help you out. If any of those are SD you can get everything you want easily with the only difference just having the mode be 4:3 where it doesn't stretch (yet with black bars on the sides).

If it's SD the manual probably says something in there as having a resolution saying "480i only" (which includes 240p). Anything that doesn't is a sure sign it's HD.

edit: yes those are all 16:9 (aka widescreen).

[jpmad4it]

You're definitely right. Trying to find a 4:3 wega here is proving very difficult. I don't even know of any models that were sold here that are 4:3.

Most of the 4:3 models here seem to be the non- flat screen trinitrons from the mid 90s. I bet I'll be lucky to find one with a s-video input too.

If any UK based members can help out that would be great.

[jpmad4it]

Mmmmm what about this??
Item number 120973907573 on eBay.co.uk

4:3 monitor with s-video

[dogman91]

PVM monitors are pretty highly regarded for retro stuff... should look good.