The difficult thing about difficulty

[J T]

First, let me be clear- I do like a challenge and I have enough gaming skill to handle it much of the time (I beat Battletoads and Ninja Gaiden before emulators and save states and more recently I made it through the Jamestown gauntlet on 'legendary' difficulty).

I've been thinking lately though, that more challenge is not always a good thing. I'm trying to figure out when it is and when it isn't, so I thought I would ask your opinions. Let's exclude games that are difficult simply because they are broken in design. I am more interested in games that intentionally set out to be challenging, like Super Meat Boy and VVVVVV (both games that I love).

Are there games where you felt the difficult ruined the overall feel for you even if you were up to the task with a bit of practice? How did the difficulty get in the way and why would it be better if the game were easier?

[KillerJuan77]

I nearly felt that way with most Ninja Gaiden games, the Gundemonium collection (I'm OK at SHMUP's but those ones are insane on the easiest difficulty to the point of breaking the game), Super Meat Boy and VVVVV, I don't find insane difficulty levels fun, most of the time it's just to extend a short game or to make people ignore that the game is cheap.

[Veno]

Weird thing about me is I prefer Megaman X5 over Megaman X4.

Most people say X5 is too easy and X4 has a better challenge, but despite X5 definitely being a little too easy, I've always found it to be a more enjoyable game. I haven't met anyone else who says the same.

[neilencio]

Not really about a specific game, but I hate games with rubber band AI. I wouldn't call it broken game design, since it was implemented intentionally just to artificially increase the challenge. It breaks the game for me because it gets to a point where no matter how good you are, the computer will always catch up.

The thing is that the game artificially increases the CPU players' skills, or stats, or speed beyond what it should be capable of at that time, so you're technically playing against someone who can cheat at the code level.

[Gamerforlife]

What is very important to me regarding difficult games is the kind of difficulty that is being presented to me. To me, there is a difference between, "you're challenging me" and "you're screwing me"

It's a key difference in design philosophy. Games that are really cheap or rely on trial and error fit into the "you're screwing me" category. In days gone by, I didn't care either way. I'd try to finish a game even it was really hard and I didn't care if it was fair or if it was cheap and contrived. I had nothing better to do as a kid and my ego made me want to beat everything

Now and days though, I have better things to do with my time than gaming. I say that as a person who LOVES gaming. Don't get me wrong, but there's always something more constructive I could be doing with my time. If I choose to play a game, I want to enjoy myself, so at least I got entertainment value out of the time I gave to it. I don't want to play a game that feels like it was designed by sadistic assholes who spent their days laughing at the thought of how many times players will die when playing their game rather than thinking about how many hours of enjoyment people will get out of their game. I don't want to invest my time in a game that is going to screw me over with cheap crap or trial and error bullshit and I don't want to invest my time in a game that is going to waste my time by making me redo pointless shit like games with little to no checkpoints do(a.k.a. Demon Souls)

I like a good challenge when I feel that the designers are indeed pushing me to play really well, but being fair about it and giving me a fair chance. I love any game that will kick my ass if my skills aren't up to snuff or I'm not trying hard enough. Don't give me a game though that feels like it's kicking me in the balls and throwing dirt in my eyes just to beat me. And don't punish me for things beyond my control a.k.a. trial and error

[Lodestar]

I made this video earlier, part of a silly series I've been putting together lately to showcase some shitty game design sections. This part was particularly unfair, I died mid-jump from an off-screen projectile that I couldn't have avoided at all - UNLESS, of course, I knew it was coming, in which case I'd wait. Poor design requires trial and error, good design will let someone with good enough reflexes/adaptability skills overcome obstacles if they're keen. This game, Chippoke no Ralph Daibouken, is full of stuff like this, and with the one-hit kills, it's quite annoying. I thought it was very hard even with save states.

I generally frown upon games that require absolute memorization of stage layout.

[Lodestar]

Not really about a specific game, but I hate games with rubber band AI. I wouldn't call it broken game design, since it was implemented intentionally just to artificially increase the challenge. It breaks the game for me because it gets to a point where no matter how good you are, the computer will always catch up.

The thing is that the game artificially increases the CPU players' skills, or stats, or speed beyond what it should be capable of at that time, so you're technically playing against someone who can cheat at the code level.

Can you give me an example of something that utilizes this "rubber band AI"? Just curious as to how that works.

On another note, can anyone cite some examples of games that end up being harder on easy mode? I think Valkyrie Profile was one of them. Wondering if there are other games like that.

[Gamerforlife]

Not really about a specific game, but I hate games with rubber band AI. I wouldn't call it broken game design, since it was implemented intentionally just to artificially increase the challenge. It breaks the game for me because it gets to a point where no matter how good you are, the computer will always catch up.

The thing is that the game artificially increases the CPU players' skills, or stats, or speed beyond what it should be capable of at that time, so you're technically playing against someone who can cheat at the code level.

Can you give me an example of something that utilizes this "rubber band AI"? Just curious as to how that works.

On another note, can anyone cite some examples of games that end up being harder on easy mode? I think Valkyrie Profile was one of them. Wondering if there are other games like that.

Racing games where no matter how well you do, the other cars always seem to be just behind you

Or fighting games where the computer reads your controller input so your opponent always knows what move you're doing. Mortal Kombat games are notorious for this. Then you have the Street Fighter II games where you'd see Guile throw a sonic boom at you from a standing position when players know that you have to hold back for two seconds to "charge" it before you can fire off a sonic boom. So basically computer Guile SHOULD be walking backward or blocking for a few seconds before he can do a sonic boom

Oh, I know every cheap game design trick in the book. The fact that I've seen it all is actually why I have a lower tolerance for difficult games these days because I can so easily spot the contrived crap that designers often do rather than find legit ways to challenge players

[AppleQueso]

^I think Mortal Kombat and SF do that to compensate for the fact that the AI is actually pretty shitty.

[jfrost]

When difficulty ruins the pacing, I give up. I had little trouble with Super Meat Boy and VVVVVV, they just seemed really fluid games to me.

I also beat God of War on God Mode (even though the difficulty is kind of artificial, since they only make you more vulnerable to damage). I thought it was OK.

There was one part in God of War 2, though, that made me totally lose the enthusiasm for the game. I don't remember what it did, but I needed to collect 20 Cyclops eyes at one stage in the game. To do that, I'd have to knock the Cyclops riders off them and kill them with a quick time event.

I'd have to be extra careful to not kill the riders, however, because that would mean the Cyclopses wouldn't respawn and I wouldn't be able to collect the stupid eyes. I just gave up then because it was a moronic thing to be doing when one blow took out half my health. That part totally ruined the flow of the game.