Hello everyone
I am total noob about 3D graphics, but I just want to know.
When a single guy works on a 3D model(like the ones in videogames) it takes him hours as far as I understand to get a good a looking one. But professionals, like videogames companies, make a ton of them, even the worst games today got a good 3D model.
Back in time('96) only huge companies could make a 3D model like Mario in Mario 64, which is totally crap by today standards .
What I want to know is, does it take more time today to make those 3D models because they are so detailed than the '96 ones OR does it take just about the same time but programs and tools are so advanced?
How come videogame companies/pixar make so many great 3D models that it will take like a week for a person to every try to imitate?
Is it because they got 20 people working on 1 3D object? Or simply because they put a lot of time in it?
just curious
Making games/3D animation
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lordofduct
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Re: Making games/3D animation
It takes relatively the same amount of time... there is just different work that comes into it all.
1) models today aren't as high poly as they look. Normal maps, occlusion maps, complex texture wavelets. For example this model:
at poly level it looks like the black lines in this:
as you can tell, some anti-aliasing and shading and the low-poly count is already hard to notice (the left side with out the mesh outline vs the right side with the mesh outline)
then with some normal mapping you fake more detail like this:
then some texturing and you get:
2) Tools have grown extremely advanced each version. Maya and 3D studio max has come a long way since they first came out, and furthermore weren't as widely used back in the day... some early models were made on in house tools and the sort.
3) tricks of the trade have been handed down. The first modelers were flying by the seat of the pants just putting stuff together. Picking different ways of modeling (on a basic level consider Saturn's quad based models, vs PS1's tri based models). Today the tricks of making a quality model are mastered and shared amongst modelers.
4) rendering capabilities have increased. Back in the day rendering a model took a lot of time in two places. When playing the game higher poly count or more complex textures and shaders wouldn't run because you'd get crap frame rates. Also a render has to be performed during the modeling process, even when modeling you couldn't up the poly count to high or the application you were running would stutter just during the drawing process... it'd be like trying to draw will a pencil that wouldn't move.
This is why back in the day there were actually dedicated platforms for modeling on. Like the Silicon Graphics Computer System, it was a dedicated operating system, special CPU, and modeling program.
5) Finally, practice, practice, practice. I'm a programmer, I don't model myself... I can barely draw a couple cubes in 3DS max... the most I can do is just simple importing exporting and maybe some slight orientation stuff and scaling, just in case I have to re-export something to resend down the pipeline.
My buddy Adny on the other hand has been modeling since 1997. He got himself 3ds max back then (I'm talking old school 3ds as well, it wasn't even the latest version at the time he got it) and just played with it daily. Today he can shit models out with out even thinking... and that's how it goes.
He was a modeler on "Marvel Ultimate Alliance 2" and he'd do hundreds of models (from small to very large) all by himself in very short time periods. Thing is he, just like any modeler, really doesn't do an entire scene just by themselves. But they'd still be big things... scenes tend to have a lot in them. An example of something in MUA2 that I know is his is a helicopter crash scene... he did the entire crash scene for it.
you can see said scene at 2:25 in:
Anyways I've watched him model some things in just an hour or 2. The model at the top of this post I showed you I watched him do in my garage in a very short amount of time. I wasn't timing him or anything as I was working on my own stuff as well.
Another example... I always show this guy because I think he is SO adorable. I love this guy and he is so going to be in our next game (first game in the sense of public release).
source of all images are from Adny's small website. All art on it is rather old and was either done in school or in the 1st year following school. Any new stuff by him you can check out in MUA2, GuitarHero on the Wii and DS, and another game I'm not at liberty to disclose.
http://studentpages.scad.edu/~ahilde20/
1) models today aren't as high poly as they look. Normal maps, occlusion maps, complex texture wavelets. For example this model:
at poly level it looks like the black lines in this:
as you can tell, some anti-aliasing and shading and the low-poly count is already hard to notice (the left side with out the mesh outline vs the right side with the mesh outline)
then with some normal mapping you fake more detail like this:
then some texturing and you get:
2) Tools have grown extremely advanced each version. Maya and 3D studio max has come a long way since they first came out, and furthermore weren't as widely used back in the day... some early models were made on in house tools and the sort.
3) tricks of the trade have been handed down. The first modelers were flying by the seat of the pants just putting stuff together. Picking different ways of modeling (on a basic level consider Saturn's quad based models, vs PS1's tri based models). Today the tricks of making a quality model are mastered and shared amongst modelers.
4) rendering capabilities have increased. Back in the day rendering a model took a lot of time in two places. When playing the game higher poly count or more complex textures and shaders wouldn't run because you'd get crap frame rates. Also a render has to be performed during the modeling process, even when modeling you couldn't up the poly count to high or the application you were running would stutter just during the drawing process... it'd be like trying to draw will a pencil that wouldn't move.
This is why back in the day there were actually dedicated platforms for modeling on. Like the Silicon Graphics Computer System, it was a dedicated operating system, special CPU, and modeling program.
5) Finally, practice, practice, practice. I'm a programmer, I don't model myself... I can barely draw a couple cubes in 3DS max... the most I can do is just simple importing exporting and maybe some slight orientation stuff and scaling, just in case I have to re-export something to resend down the pipeline.
My buddy Adny on the other hand has been modeling since 1997. He got himself 3ds max back then (I'm talking old school 3ds as well, it wasn't even the latest version at the time he got it) and just played with it daily. Today he can shit models out with out even thinking... and that's how it goes.
He was a modeler on "Marvel Ultimate Alliance 2" and he'd do hundreds of models (from small to very large) all by himself in very short time periods. Thing is he, just like any modeler, really doesn't do an entire scene just by themselves. But they'd still be big things... scenes tend to have a lot in them. An example of something in MUA2 that I know is his is a helicopter crash scene... he did the entire crash scene for it.
you can see said scene at 2:25 in:
Anyways I've watched him model some things in just an hour or 2. The model at the top of this post I showed you I watched him do in my garage in a very short amount of time. I wasn't timing him or anything as I was working on my own stuff as well.
Another example... I always show this guy because I think he is SO adorable. I love this guy and he is so going to be in our next game (first game in the sense of public release).
source of all images are from Adny's small website. All art on it is rather old and was either done in school or in the 1st year following school. Any new stuff by him you can check out in MUA2, GuitarHero on the Wii and DS, and another game I'm not at liberty to disclose.
http://studentpages.scad.edu/~ahilde20/
Re: Making games/3D animation
very interesting.
That means individuals can make their own 3D animation movies like in a month's time?
something like 10-15 min.
Umm...then why some 3D animation looks plain and stupid although done by commercial studios?
would like to hear more input
That means individuals can make their own 3D animation movies like in a month's time?
something like 10-15 min.
Umm...then why some 3D animation looks plain and stupid although done by commercial studios?
would like to hear more input
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lordofduct
- Next-Gen
- Posts: 2907
- Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2006 12:57 pm
- Location: West Palm Beach
Re: Making games/3D animation
Quality all has to do with skill, budget, dedication, size of team, etc...
1) most modelers don't do the animation. They make a model, rig a skeleton, and hand that off to an animator who then animates the model. Which is a whole nother set of skills. A lot of modelers have basic animation skills, but not superb animation skills. Usually you're good in one or the other, or you've been doing both for a very long time.
2) not all modelers are made alike. Not to be tooting my buddies horn or anything, but the kids a freakin' genius when it comes to anything art. The kid just can piss artwork out that looks awesome (sometimes a bit creepy). And there are artists out there that are 100 times better then my buddy. In the same respect there are just as many that suck royal ball sacks... I've met some "animators" and "modelers" wanting to do projects with us and there work was unbearable to look at. Yet these same people have gone on to work for companies out there, some of which have gotten better over time.
For every Picasso there is 100 other guys making finger paintings.
3) money talks. These people have jobs to pay bills. And some jobs just don't pay a lot of money... they'll do multiple jobs at once, and if a company ain't paying top dollar... their work just doesn't get the amount of effort put into it.
You consider these companies usually pay hourly or salary or something. They say I want some animation in a week for 500 dollars. Good luck asshole, that shit will come out garbage, you aren't paying enough and have a short time period on it. Artist dude is just going to rush through it and make something relatively presentable.
4) Commercial studios aren't always what you think they are. Now again I'm not an artist, but the same thing really goes when it comes to programming vs art in hiring practices.
I freelance program right now while I set up my own studio (that shit takes money, and I need to get this prototype off the ground... grrrr). Commercial studios all over the world contact me to do work for them. I guarantee surfing the web you've been on at least a couple websites that operated on code I wrote. And some of these websites tend to be huge. Shit I've had a contract from Paramount in my history.
Just because the name on the product says "big brand", doesn't mean it wasn't manufactured by little kids in a sweat shop half way around the world.
And sweat shops aren't far from the truth. I only started programming 2 and a half years ago. I stepped into the professional market 6 months after my first line of code (scored a job in LA... ugh... hate that city). I freelanced a whole shitload from the get go, and due to my perceived (I have very low self-esteem considering my own work) and my need to get my name out there, I did a lot of jobs for pennies on the dollar. So yeah a lot of shit code went out there... the customer was happy, but I'll tell you I sure wasn't, and I bet some others have seen it and gone "What the hell!?" Of course my standard of quality has gone up since, I have a reputation to uphold.
...
as for an artist making a 10 or 15 minute animation in a months time. That really depends on a lot of things. Numero uno, how good of an artist they are. But yeah, a month is a good amount of time. Consider it this way, I used to hang out in Savannah around SCAD where a lot of kids went to school for game design and 3d modeling (I had 3 friends that went there). In a given semester they'd have several projects consisting of animation, modeling, etc that would have to be done. A semester is only a few months AND they would have 4 classes at a time. So yeah, a month is a good amount of time to get an animation made.
1) most modelers don't do the animation. They make a model, rig a skeleton, and hand that off to an animator who then animates the model. Which is a whole nother set of skills. A lot of modelers have basic animation skills, but not superb animation skills. Usually you're good in one or the other, or you've been doing both for a very long time.
2) not all modelers are made alike. Not to be tooting my buddies horn or anything, but the kids a freakin' genius when it comes to anything art. The kid just can piss artwork out that looks awesome (sometimes a bit creepy). And there are artists out there that are 100 times better then my buddy. In the same respect there are just as many that suck royal ball sacks... I've met some "animators" and "modelers" wanting to do projects with us and there work was unbearable to look at. Yet these same people have gone on to work for companies out there, some of which have gotten better over time.
For every Picasso there is 100 other guys making finger paintings.
3) money talks. These people have jobs to pay bills. And some jobs just don't pay a lot of money... they'll do multiple jobs at once, and if a company ain't paying top dollar... their work just doesn't get the amount of effort put into it.
You consider these companies usually pay hourly or salary or something. They say I want some animation in a week for 500 dollars. Good luck asshole, that shit will come out garbage, you aren't paying enough and have a short time period on it. Artist dude is just going to rush through it and make something relatively presentable.
4) Commercial studios aren't always what you think they are. Now again I'm not an artist, but the same thing really goes when it comes to programming vs art in hiring practices.
I freelance program right now while I set up my own studio (that shit takes money, and I need to get this prototype off the ground... grrrr). Commercial studios all over the world contact me to do work for them. I guarantee surfing the web you've been on at least a couple websites that operated on code I wrote. And some of these websites tend to be huge. Shit I've had a contract from Paramount in my history.
Just because the name on the product says "big brand", doesn't mean it wasn't manufactured by little kids in a sweat shop half way around the world.
And sweat shops aren't far from the truth. I only started programming 2 and a half years ago. I stepped into the professional market 6 months after my first line of code (scored a job in LA... ugh... hate that city). I freelanced a whole shitload from the get go, and due to my perceived (I have very low self-esteem considering my own work) and my need to get my name out there, I did a lot of jobs for pennies on the dollar. So yeah a lot of shit code went out there... the customer was happy, but I'll tell you I sure wasn't, and I bet some others have seen it and gone "What the hell!?" Of course my standard of quality has gone up since, I have a reputation to uphold.
...
as for an artist making a 10 or 15 minute animation in a months time. That really depends on a lot of things. Numero uno, how good of an artist they are. But yeah, a month is a good amount of time. Consider it this way, I used to hang out in Savannah around SCAD where a lot of kids went to school for game design and 3d modeling (I had 3 friends that went there). In a given semester they'd have several projects consisting of animation, modeling, etc that would have to be done. A semester is only a few months AND they would have 4 classes at a time. So yeah, a month is a good amount of time to get an animation made.
Re: Making games/3D animation
I'd recommend checking out the blog of Keith Lango for animation related stuff.
Animation is like any kind of art; however polished and great it looks is going to depend on how much time you put into it (and vice versa). There's one animation tutorial Keith Lango made and it's somewhere under ten seconds of a character talking and acting and it took him twenty hours to do.
Animation is like any kind of art; however polished and great it looks is going to depend on how much time you put into it (and vice versa). There's one animation tutorial Keith Lango made and it's somewhere under ten seconds of a character talking and acting and it took him twenty hours to do.
Re: Making games/3D animation
Great posts LordofDuct! I've never tried to do this kind of artwork before, so it's interesting to learn about. I love the little alligator boy by the way.
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