Steve Jobs named most influential person in gaming!

[Inazuma]

Either I'm not doing a good job with explaining my points, or you guys are misunderstanding me. Let me make it very short and simple then:

Thanks to companies such as Nintendo, Apple and Facebook, casual gaming has grown very quickly and it's a big fucking deal now. The bigger casual gaming gets, the more of a negative effect it has on gamers and video games themselves.

[o.pwuaioc]

It's a clear opinion, but it needs to be backed up with facts.

[Jmustang1968]

do you have specific examples of dumbed down games?

Mario Kart Wii

It's the worst Mario Kart, only because of how it was designed to cater to the casual market. They dumbed down the mini turbo mechanic because it lets skilled players beat unskilled players. Casuals wouldn't enjoy the game if they always lose, so the skill/luck balance was tweaked to "fix" that. The end result is a game that isn't as good as it should have been.

In comparison, Mario Kart Double Dash and Mario Kart DS are the two best versions of Mario Kart. If you are skilled enough, you will win most of your races.

I really hope they don't ruin Mario Kart 7 the same way. Please Nintendo. Don't take away the handicap item system completely, just make skill actually matter too. Driving should be more important than items.

I would also argue cart based racing games are somewhat casual by nature. If you want a competitive and skill based driving game, Forza and Gran Turismo do a great job of giving a sim driving experience while rewarding skilled players. The level of complexity in those games is astounding.

I dont think games are dumbed down any more these days. I think the design choice has been to make games more accessible while still being challenging. Easy to learn and pick up and play, but difficult to master.

Also, sometimes complexity for the sake of complexity is very bad design.

[Jmustang1968]

Either I'm not doing a good job with explaining my points, or you guys are misunderstanding me. Let me make it very short and simple then:

Thanks to companies such as Nintendo, Apple and Facebook, casual gaming has grown very quickly and it's a big fucking deal now. The bigger casual gaming gets, the more of a negative effect it has on gamers and video games themselves.

or the casual games get people interested in games who weren't before and who then move on to more hardcore games.

Don't blame the game makers, blame the market and the consumer. They stop making games that don't sell. I don't like the casual games much, nor do they interest me. But there are a ton of hardcore games out there. Too many that I wont have the time in my lifetime to play them all. I think it is just developing another sector of gaming that hasnt been explored as much until now, or has been neglected a long time. Most of these newer casual games have about as much depth as many old 8-bit titles. Ones you could pick up and play and beat in an hour or 2.

[o.pwuaioc]

Easy to learn and pick up and play, but difficult to master.

What games have you been playing? Golden Age arcade games epitomized "easy to learn and pick up and play, but difficult to master". 12 hour tutorials don't fit that definition very well.

[sheath]

Yeah, easy to pick up and play but difficult to master is an Arcade game quality that has been mostly lost with the advent of cinematic "core" games. I haven't played every indie/iPhone game out there, actually I haven't played any, but I doubt many fit the bill.

[o.pwuaioc]

Yeah, easy to pick up and play but difficult to master is an Arcade game quality that has been mostly lost with the advent of cinematic "core" games. I haven't played every indie/iPhone game out there, actually I haven't played any, but I doubt many fit the bill.

They're not impossible to find, but even games like Braid I found to be a bit to easy in certain aspects. It's more puzzle than game skill (like, e.g. VVVVVV).

[Jmustang1968]

Easy to learn and pick up and play, but difficult to master.

What games have you been playing? Golden Age arcade games epitomized "easy to learn and pick up and play, but difficult to master". 12 hour tutorials don't fit that definition very well.

sports titles, Forza, Many MMOs, League of Legends/DOTA clones, Starcraft 2, BF3, Demons Souls/Dark Souls (though they arent that friendly for new players), El Shaddai, Rock Band/GH, MvC... Those are just off the top of my head without looking at a list.

[o.pwuaioc]

Easy to learn and pick up and play, but difficult to master.

What games have you been playing? Golden Age arcade games epitomized "easy to learn and pick up and play, but difficult to master". 12 hour tutorials don't fit that definition very well.

sports titles, Forza, Many MMOs, League of Legends/DOTA clones, Starcraft 2, BF3, Demons Souls/Dark Souls (though they arent that friendly for new players), El Shaddai, Rock Band/GH, MvC... Those are just off the top of my head without looking at a list.

My last Madden was 08, but even then it wasn't just a "pick up and play" like Pac Man or Galaga or Donkey Kong. In fact, of the games I've played in your list, only Guitar Hero seems to fit that bill. The rest you have to learn controls (or moves or hot keys).

[Jmustang1968]

sports titles, Forza, Many MMOs, League of Legends/DOTA clones, Starcraft 2, BF3, Demons Souls/Dark Souls (though they arent that friendly for new players), El Shaddai, Rock Band/GH, MvC... Those are just off the top of my head without looking at a list.

My last Madden was 08, but even then it wasn't just a "pick up and play" like Pac Man or Galaga or Donkey Kong. In fact, of the games I've played in your list, only Guitar Hero seems to fit that bill. The rest you have to learn controls (or moves or hot keys).

Well when you have more than 2 or 4 buttons on the controller... This definition is also dependent on gaming familiarity. Are we talking pick up and play for a grandma or pick up and play for a gamer?

I have many friends who come over and play madden and have fun with it without ever having played it before. But it takes a ton of practice and some ability to get really good at it.