Adding or removing frames can make a big difference. The Street Fighter 2 HD remake had problems with that issue because they couldn't just add in extra frames of animation without changing how the moves were originally...in the end they just decided to use the same amount of animation frames as the original.
Not sure if the DC port's missing frames is purely cosmetic, but there could be some affect on gameplay. Nothing huge to most people, I guess, but it would change how the moves work/come out.
Suggest a SNK fighter for me
Lodestar, I'm reading around on neo-geo.com and on shoryuken.com and few people are attempting to validate their ports. On neo-geo.com everyone just says "DC port is shit" and "DC is find if you like to play shit". And when someone mentions a difference it's something like "the timing on that dude's move is less forgiving, still doable but less forgiving" followed by "it's shit".
That is group-speak and group-think. If someone says "I thought it was a fine game and a pretty good port" 5 blowhards jump on them and flame them into the ground. That's not a meaningful discussion of differences. That's "we all have an opinion and because your opinion is different you suck. you are not one of us. we are elite and you are shit". And in the process I'm learning very little that I think I could attempt to verify. Instead I'm getting annoyed at how retarded all these fuckers in the forums are for not being more articulate.
Even if the DC version of MOTW is a little different, different enough that the tournament players who have learned perfect timing can't do their perfectly timed fighting domination, it's still an excellent port, an excellent game, and a lot of fun to play. The search for these little details is just so frustrating. Minor differences do not "shit" make. And I still haven't witnessed these supposed "sound problems" people hold up as truth. I just think everyone's playing burned copies. Agetec didn't press many originals in the US and I don't think many people bought the ones that were pressed. It's like people pirating PC games and then complaining that they are buggy to the company that DIDN'T sell it to them.
That is group-speak and group-think. If someone says "I thought it was a fine game and a pretty good port" 5 blowhards jump on them and flame them into the ground. That's not a meaningful discussion of differences. That's "we all have an opinion and because your opinion is different you suck. you are not one of us. we are elite and you are shit". And in the process I'm learning very little that I think I could attempt to verify. Instead I'm getting annoyed at how retarded all these fuckers in the forums are for not being more articulate.
Even if the DC version of MOTW is a little different, different enough that the tournament players who have learned perfect timing can't do their perfectly timed fighting domination, it's still an excellent port, an excellent game, and a lot of fun to play. The search for these little details is just so frustrating. Minor differences do not "shit" make. And I still haven't witnessed these supposed "sound problems" people hold up as truth. I just think everyone's playing burned copies. Agetec didn't press many originals in the US and I don't think many people bought the ones that were pressed. It's like people pirating PC games and then complaining that they are buggy to the company that DIDN'T sell it to them.
Yeah, I was thinking that too.
Unless you have some good explanations and maybe some real video to verify, I take those quick statements with a grain of salt.
Unless you have some good explanations and maybe some real video to verify, I take those quick statements with a grain of salt.
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It should be noted that I didn't read past the first post in that thread, so anything that you disagree with or don't like about their behavior is not really my problem. That was literally the first thread I found with anything about Garou, so it's not very in-depth and only contains a brief summary of the issues.
SRK can be a bit brash, but again, that's an entirely different issue and doesn't really change anything. I'm not going to bother looking for more sources so you guys can poke holes at things you don't like about the people there, it's really not worth my time just to convince you that these 'flaws' exist. And at this point, I think you admit that they exist, but you realize that they're not significant enough to you. In reality, maybe they aren't big enough to ruin the game, but ports are expected to be arcade perfect or as close to that as possible--and most people, including myself, don't consider this one to be so. I personally don't like it for more than just that, the DC controller itself has a really uncomfortable d-pad that makes your thumb sore after inputting a lot of complex motions.
SRK can be a bit brash, but again, that's an entirely different issue and doesn't really change anything. I'm not going to bother looking for more sources so you guys can poke holes at things you don't like about the people there, it's really not worth my time just to convince you that these 'flaws' exist. And at this point, I think you admit that they exist, but you realize that they're not significant enough to you. In reality, maybe they aren't big enough to ruin the game, but ports are expected to be arcade perfect or as close to that as possible--and most people, including myself, don't consider this one to be so. I personally don't like it for more than just that, the DC controller itself has a really uncomfortable d-pad that makes your thumb sore after inputting a lot of complex motions.
Lodestar, the stuff I read was doing my own investigation into forums. You need not provide any further information. I did further digging, especially into threads that were referenced as supposed evidence of the problems, but they were just full of more people being pricks and claiming there were issues. I mean, this whole thing is he said/she said. Frankly, I don't see any evidence or solid accusations that should present any problems for anyone here in the Racketboy forums.
There may or may not be frames missing and slightly altered timings. If said problems do exist, and I'm not convinced they do, they are negligible for all but the absolutely most competitive or picky players. As far as I am concerned the stuff about sound issues is an artifact of playing burns instead of originals since my original exhibits none of that. No doubt more people are playing burns than legitimate copies these days anyway, particularly on this forum. I'm going to play again on DC and go to Terry Bogard's stage since some people indicated there may be lag there, but I don't really expect to be convinced.
As for ports being expected to be arcade perfect, I should say not. Ports are generally expected to be a little quirky. A port is considered excellent and a model for all others when it matches the arcade original. And, rarely, you get ports like Soul Calibur on the DC that dramatically improve over the original. Really, it wasn't until the Saturn and Playstation generation that there was ever even a remote hope of a port holding up to the original as far as recent arcade titles.
That said, there's no technical reason the Dreamcast version of MOTW shouldn't be arcade perfect, and if it isn't, for some reason, at least we got a game that's highly playable and lots of fun. We should also keep in mind that the people who are ragging on the MOTW port, and other ports, the hardest are the people who likely think they have the most to lose. They are largely the people who own an MVS or AES unit and would probably feel gypped if a port upstaged their beautiful original hardware. I've love to be able to own an MVS or AES and I'd sure as hell defend the originals if I did own one. One cannot discount the potential bias here, just as my own biases can't be ignored.
I noticed the harshest critics on shoryuken and neo-geo.com were also really negative about the KOF 98 and 99 ports to the Dreamcast and I find those incredibly fun and eminently playable as well. They are certainly not arcade "perfect" nor do they appear intended to be. Rather, they are perfectly fun games in their own right. I've no interest in tournament play. I just want reasonably fun play against the CPU and friends. I don't have the time to invest to be tournament competitive. I think it's easy to fall into the trap of thinking the arcade original is somehow "perfect" or "pristine", when really all it is is the original.
And yes, I agree that the Dreamcast pad is horrible horrible for 2D fighting games of all kinds. I have a 6 button ASCII pad, a converter that will let me use a Saturn pad or my PSX joystick on my Dreamcast, and a Topmax joystick that's pretty decent too. It's entirely possible some of the complaints about "timing issues" may be due to trying to use the regular DC pad.
I also find it truly condescending to think that anything that isn't exactly like the arcade original is "shit". Those people apparently no longer play for fun. They've allowed a hobby to go into dangerous territory. They hold their opinions as fact, carved in granite, and denigrate anyone who disagrees. We're not that kind of forum here. Let's face it, we all have opinions, quite invested ones. And sometimes we have heated discussions here. But we stay civil here at Racketboy's Retro Gaming Forums. These are games, entertainments. Here, on this forum, we can get over ourselves in the name of having good discussions. People here who act the way some of those people act there don't last long.
I'm not directly ranting at you, Lodestar. Don't take too much of this personally. In trying to research this issue I've been exposed to a darker side of internet forums that I thought I'd managed to leave behind. I keep forgetting, foolishly, that the internet transforms many otherwise decent people into internet fuckwads. But not you, Lodestar. I disagree with your opinions on this matter but you've been civil and decent. I hope you won't let my long posts on this topic scare you away from these forums. Stay polite and civil with us and you'll get the same from us in return. Do stick around and enjoy your stay.
There may or may not be frames missing and slightly altered timings. If said problems do exist, and I'm not convinced they do, they are negligible for all but the absolutely most competitive or picky players. As far as I am concerned the stuff about sound issues is an artifact of playing burns instead of originals since my original exhibits none of that. No doubt more people are playing burns than legitimate copies these days anyway, particularly on this forum. I'm going to play again on DC and go to Terry Bogard's stage since some people indicated there may be lag there, but I don't really expect to be convinced.
As for ports being expected to be arcade perfect, I should say not. Ports are generally expected to be a little quirky. A port is considered excellent and a model for all others when it matches the arcade original. And, rarely, you get ports like Soul Calibur on the DC that dramatically improve over the original. Really, it wasn't until the Saturn and Playstation generation that there was ever even a remote hope of a port holding up to the original as far as recent arcade titles.
That said, there's no technical reason the Dreamcast version of MOTW shouldn't be arcade perfect, and if it isn't, for some reason, at least we got a game that's highly playable and lots of fun. We should also keep in mind that the people who are ragging on the MOTW port, and other ports, the hardest are the people who likely think they have the most to lose. They are largely the people who own an MVS or AES unit and would probably feel gypped if a port upstaged their beautiful original hardware. I've love to be able to own an MVS or AES and I'd sure as hell defend the originals if I did own one. One cannot discount the potential bias here, just as my own biases can't be ignored.
I noticed the harshest critics on shoryuken and neo-geo.com were also really negative about the KOF 98 and 99 ports to the Dreamcast and I find those incredibly fun and eminently playable as well. They are certainly not arcade "perfect" nor do they appear intended to be. Rather, they are perfectly fun games in their own right. I've no interest in tournament play. I just want reasonably fun play against the CPU and friends. I don't have the time to invest to be tournament competitive. I think it's easy to fall into the trap of thinking the arcade original is somehow "perfect" or "pristine", when really all it is is the original.
And yes, I agree that the Dreamcast pad is horrible horrible for 2D fighting games of all kinds. I have a 6 button ASCII pad, a converter that will let me use a Saturn pad or my PSX joystick on my Dreamcast, and a Topmax joystick that's pretty decent too. It's entirely possible some of the complaints about "timing issues" may be due to trying to use the regular DC pad.
I also find it truly condescending to think that anything that isn't exactly like the arcade original is "shit". Those people apparently no longer play for fun. They've allowed a hobby to go into dangerous territory. They hold their opinions as fact, carved in granite, and denigrate anyone who disagrees. We're not that kind of forum here. Let's face it, we all have opinions, quite invested ones. And sometimes we have heated discussions here. But we stay civil here at Racketboy's Retro Gaming Forums. These are games, entertainments. Here, on this forum, we can get over ourselves in the name of having good discussions. People here who act the way some of those people act there don't last long.
I'm not directly ranting at you, Lodestar. Don't take too much of this personally. In trying to research this issue I've been exposed to a darker side of internet forums that I thought I'd managed to leave behind. I keep forgetting, foolishly, that the internet transforms many otherwise decent people into internet fuckwads. But not you, Lodestar. I disagree with your opinions on this matter but you've been civil and decent. I hope you won't let my long posts on this topic scare you away from these forums. Stay polite and civil with us and you'll get the same from us in return. Do stick around and enjoy your stay.
nateup2, you mean this heated a discussion without flaming or going to plaid, or do you just like tension? :)
Also, in case anyone hasn't noticed by now, I rant a lot. I don't have any good outlets for my political and real-world rants so I focus my energies on my hobby :) Provides a nice outlet, eh?
Also, in case anyone hasn't noticed by now, I rant a lot. I don't have any good outlets for my political and real-world rants so I focus my energies on my hobby :) Provides a nice outlet, eh?
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I feel kind of responsible for starting this thread...
I just wanted to say that I'm not very good at fighting games in general and I was just looking to get into SNK games because they are generally regarded as great games.
And also, I will probably only be playing against the AI and I will definitely never reach a point where small differences will matter to me (it does bother me that the AI does charged moves without charging, and I know playing fighting games against the AI is usually a terrible idea).
In fact, I believe there are many people like me who might not notice the differences due to a lack of expertise or a difference in opinion, but would still like to play the game knowing it is the most "accurate" version (which raises all sorts of questions, too).
However, if I really wanted to get into a certain game, and I mean REALLY into it, I would definitely play and discover the nuances of all versions and decide for myself. If I can't see a difference, even after being shown the differences by "experts", then the port I play doesn't matter.
The reality is, in my case, I do not own a Neo-Geo but I do own several DCs and so I plan to get one of the JP DC versions (still undecided about the original or Playmore re-release). In a perfect world I would own every game and system and just play whichever version I like more.
Thanks for all your input on the ports of MOTW, unfortunately these discussions would be much shorter if we were all in the same room with multiple arcade setups and consoles.
One more thing, Lodestar, I don't think anybody in their right mind would play a fighter or shooter with the DC controller...I'm sure you know the Agetec stick, Saturn pad, or Capcom pad are much better (depending on your stick or pad preference).
Edit: Sorry, I see the controller issue has already been addressed above in a post that was written while I was writing my post.
I just wanted to say that I'm not very good at fighting games in general and I was just looking to get into SNK games because they are generally regarded as great games.
And also, I will probably only be playing against the AI and I will definitely never reach a point where small differences will matter to me (it does bother me that the AI does charged moves without charging, and I know playing fighting games against the AI is usually a terrible idea).
In fact, I believe there are many people like me who might not notice the differences due to a lack of expertise or a difference in opinion, but would still like to play the game knowing it is the most "accurate" version (which raises all sorts of questions, too).
However, if I really wanted to get into a certain game, and I mean REALLY into it, I would definitely play and discover the nuances of all versions and decide for myself. If I can't see a difference, even after being shown the differences by "experts", then the port I play doesn't matter.
The reality is, in my case, I do not own a Neo-Geo but I do own several DCs and so I plan to get one of the JP DC versions (still undecided about the original or Playmore re-release). In a perfect world I would own every game and system and just play whichever version I like more.
Thanks for all your input on the ports of MOTW, unfortunately these discussions would be much shorter if we were all in the same room with multiple arcade setups and consoles.
One more thing, Lodestar, I don't think anybody in their right mind would play a fighter or shooter with the DC controller...I'm sure you know the Agetec stick, Saturn pad, or Capcom pad are much better (depending on your stick or pad preference).
Edit: Sorry, I see the controller issue has already been addressed above in a post that was written while I was writing my post.
"Your vessel, your beginning. All that you knew...is gone." - The Guardian of Forever
I just mean that debates like this are very informative... and yeah its great that everyone can share their side in a civilized manor.marurun wrote:nateup2, you mean this heated a discussion without flaming or going to plaid, or do you just like tension?
Also, in case anyone hasn't noticed by now, I rant a lot. I don't have any good outlets for my political and real-world rants so I focus my energies on my hobbyProvides a nice outlet, eh?
Thanks for the info yall