Nintendo's lack of diversity

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catnip
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Re: Nintendo's lack of diversity

Post by catnip »

AppleQueso wrote:
jvalentine98 wrote:Well in the US, white straight male are the guys buying the games, like it or not. That's majority race, and the majority orientation. If you want your product to make money, you better make sure the core customers are going to be interested.

The media may not want you to know this, but the US is still 70% white to this day, immigration and rise of minorities babies notwithstanding.
So what you're basically saying is that media should continue to perpetuate current social inequities.

"B-b-but we can't have diversity! What about the status quo!?"
I don't think that's what jvalentine is trying to say; I think they're trying to say that, for now, companies would rather pander to white straight males and have a higher chance of success for their games, than do something different and lower that chance.

Not saying that's the "right" way to go about things, but maybe that's the perspective they were trying to share. If there's a system that the producers of a game know works well, they don't have too much monetary incentive to explore other options.
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Jmustang1968
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Re: Nintendo's lack of diversity

Post by Jmustang1968 »

I can see and agree with what you are saying until the end. I dont think there are far too many games of male heroes etc... I think it is fair to say there arent enough minority leads, or that the ratio is too skewed. Maybe they are essentially the same thing, and I am quibbling over technicalities. I just dislike the social justice view or complaint to take from one and give to another. Promote what you prefer but dont try to bring down the norm, if possible, at the same time. If that makes sense?
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Re: Nintendo's lack of diversity

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Jmustang1968 wrote: I just dislike the social justice view or complaint to take from one and give to another. Promote what you prefer but dont try to bring down the norm, if possible, at the same time. If that makes sense?
It doesn't, no :lol:

Games are a business, and like in any business the adoption of a wider range of representations isn't ever going to be about "social justice" or done at the expense of existing profits - it will be about attracting new audiences to new kinds of characters so as to remain viable amongst shifting demographics. Nothing is being "brought down" or "taken away from" as an act of liberal activist brainwashing; audiences will vote with their wallets, and companies will respond in like.
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Re: Nintendo's lack of diversity

Post by Jmustang1968 »

dsheinem wrote:
Jmustang1968 wrote: I just dislike the social justice view or complaint to take from one and give to another. Promote what you prefer but dont try to bring down the norm, if possible, at the same time. If that makes sense?
It doesn't, no :lol:

Games are a business, and like in any business the adoption of a wider range of representations isn't ever going to be about "social justice" or done at the expense of existing profits - it will be about attracting new audiences to new kinds of characters so as to remain viable amongst shifting demographics. Nothing is being "brought down" or "taken away from" as an act of liberal activist brainwashing; audiences will vote with their wallets, and companies will respond in like.
I dont think you got what I said or I didnt explain it well.

I dont like the approach of there is too much of x. Which implies scaling back of or taking from. Instead push I wish there wss more of y. The former approach to me is somewhat antagonistic and will cause those who favor the 'x' to become defensive.
Last edited by Jmustang1968 on Fri May 16, 2014 5:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
AppleQueso

Re: Nintendo's lack of diversity

Post by AppleQueso »

Jmustang1968 wrote:The latter approach to me is somewhat antagonistic and will cause those who favor the 'x' to become defensive.
Too bad often those who favor the 'x' get defensive anyways because they perceive 'more of y' as being 'less of x' even if that's not actually what's going on.
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Re: Nintendo's lack of diversity

Post by jvalentine98 »

dsheinem wrote:
Jmustang1968 wrote:The big factor is that so many writers/directors/developers are white males. So, I think one typically writes characters with whom they can relate to, or are at their strongest when they write those characters.
^this and this:
jvalentine98 wrote:Well in the US, white straight male are the guys buying the games, like it or not. That's majority race, and the majority orientation. If you want your product to make money, you better make sure the core customers are going to be interested. If you alienated all the white straight males, you'd be hurting.
are closely related.

Straight white males might be a majority of the game-buying public in the US now, but they aren't the majority of the public as a whole (and their numbers are shrinking). If companies want to make money, they need to be finding ways to appeal to/attract additional audiences, audiences that will also want to become invested in making those games themselves.

The same problem exists in film (especially as regards the production side), and that industry is dealing with the same thing. The fact is that population demographics have shifted considerably in the past generation and will continue to do so - and that the industries that account for this will be those that find success. "Default Straight White Male worldview" is still going to be availble and prevalent, but there will be (and should be) a much wider variety of perspectives to see, stories to hear, characters to choose, etc. going forward.
The fact of the matter is the US is 70% white. The majority of gamers are white guys. White guys also have the most income to spend on said games. The average age of the gamer is getting older, not younger. In 5 years, this will still be the case. I don't know of a game in development that is targeting people more than 5 years from now.

Of course there are games for women, etc. But look at the main franchises, Madden, COD, etc. It's for guys, and most of those guys are white.
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Re: Nintendo's lack of diversity

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Jmustang1968 wrote:The latter approach to me is somewhat antagonistic and will cause those who favor the 'x' to become defensive.
Ah, ok. I get that it is a more "antagonistic" way to phrase it but, on the other hand, I do think there is too much of "X" in this case because:

A) it isn't good business given shifting population demographics
and
B) it is boring to me personally and a sign of creative stagnation in a medium I enjoy

So, yeah, I do think there's too much "straight white male hero on trope-filled quest" than what is needed from the standpoint of fun experiences and from the standpoint of good business...and I think there should be more diverse gaming experiences to remedy these problems. :lol:
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Re: Nintendo's lack of diversity

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dsheinem wrote:As a straight white male, I find it infinitely more fascinating and refreshing to play a game from another identity's perspective. Most recently this was the case when playing the "Left Behind" DLC for The Last of Us and the indie PC game "Gone Home" - both of which put me in the "virtual shoes" of a character who was different from me in gender, age, sexuality, or some combination of those things in a relatively "meaningful" way (at least, for a video game narrative). These weren't examples of "tokenism" by any stretch, they were games built around a kind of experience or kind of relationship I wouldn't ever have otherwise - they offered both escapism (which some people seek in all games) and a new perspective on the world (which too few games provide). There are far too many games with male protagonists and/or trope-filled stories about the great male hero who rescues the girl, saves the world, etc...
I agree with this and appreciate the video game medium as one where I can experience a world through the eyes of someone with a different perspective or background from my own. Through games, I have gotten to experience characters of varying races, age, religion, sexuality, physical capability, and gender, or even species or non-biological existence, across a variety of time and space locales. This is one of video gaming's greatest strengths, at least to me, that I could learn to perceive and deal with problems from entirely different perspectives because now the story is presented to me in a new way that did not match my previous experience.

Unfortunately it's not always a positive experience, as Dr. Brad Brusham of Ohio State has to say: http://www.theroot.com/articles/culture ... acism.html

Though his research is also not without rebuff, such as Ben Kuchera's response, with input from Dr. Tyler Black from BC Children's Hospital: http://www.polygon.com/2014/3/27/555413 ... he-science
dsheinem wrote:
Jmustang1968 wrote: I just dislike the social justice view or complaint to take from one and give to another. Promote what you prefer but dont try to bring down the norm, if possible, at the same time. If that makes sense?
It doesn't, no :lol:

Games are a business, and like in any business the adoption of a wider range of representations isn't ever going to be about "social justice" or done at the expense of existing profits - it will be about attracting new audiences to new kinds of characters so as to remain viable amongst shifting demographics. Nothing is being "brought down" or "taken away from" as an act of liberal activist brainwashing; audiences will vote with their wallets, and companies will respond in like.
Well...not entirely. The worry is that, as video games diversify, the "Default Straight White Male worldview" will either vanish or become entirely vilified, creating the same problem of underrepresentation. You mentioned Hollywood earlier, and yes, Hollywood still has considerable problems with diversity within production. But they also now have the perception of "liberal activist brainwashing" through the perceived blacklisting of conservative actors and directors. So while Hollywood still suffers a lack of diversity behind the camera, they now suffer it in a new way in front of the camera and are still failing to be all-inclusive.

In short, what jmustang seems to be saying is that he wants more diversity, without the belief that to gain such diversity the "Default Straight White Male worldview" has to be sacrificed or discarded. And unfortunately, most reaction that he experiences against the "Default Straight White Male worldview" seems to be in favor of doing away with it, at least in his perception.

This is directly opposite of your belief, Ds, that some of it should be discarded if only because there is simply too much of it and you find it boring.
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Re: Nintendo's lack of diversity

Post by dsheinem »

jvalentine98 wrote: The fact of the matter is the US is 70% white. The majority of gamers are white guys.
The fact of the matter is you are woely misinformed about population demographics and gamer demographics.
But look at the main franchises, Madden, COD, etc. It's for guys, and most of those guys are white.
The popularity and financial success of Candy Crush, Farmville, Mario Kart, the Lego series, etc. would suggest that the market is much larger than middle-aged white guys.
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Re: Nintendo's lack of diversity

Post by AppleQueso »

I'm sorry but I really, really don't see any good reason why the status quo of "white straight male as default" should be upheld.

If a member of the dominant group in society feels alienated because gaming suddenly has more non-white protagonists, more non-male protagonists, etc, then I'm not likely to have much sympathy for them.

I find it very worrying when the idea of greater diversity is portrayed as some kind of nightmare scenario. Worried that white people will become underrepresented? Well how do you think the groups that are currently underrepresented right now feel?
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