Why I hate "dudebro," "brogamer," etc.

[Forlorn Drifter]

The words have stigmas with them. Right, I live in the South. Straight dab in the middle of Texas. I have a rebel flag on my wall, and some good friends that are black. Yet, I still get called racist when I try to explain who someone is, and say, "He's black, brown eyed, and he works down at the feed store." Do you see racism there? I don't. Yet, there has gotten to be a stigma around the word black.

Meh, I'm trying to make a point. Words now adays have to much taken with them. I use the word Mexican a lot, and people get offended and expect me to call them Hispanic. I don't get that. The examples off of the top of my head were from Mexico, spoke Mexican spanish, and made Mexican food at our culture day at school.

I don't get it!

Texas is in the South? News to me.

And Hispanic is the correct term. Mexican is a nationality; not a race/ethnicity.
You can be white, black, purple, blue, whatever and still be a Mexican, Korean, American, anything.

Texas being in the south can be argued- I've never had anybody I've met in real life argue, and I normally get the 'dumb, southern fried country redneck' stereotype tacked on by ignorant people, so y'know.

I don't believe you read my post correctly though. They were from Mexico, born, bred, and raised.. I don't see why it would be wrong to call them Mexican. Now, I can understand the use of Hispanic when I'm not sure, but I've dealt with enough Spanish speaking peoples to know where they are from pretty quickly.

Sorry, I just get argumentive on the internet. Meh.

[Breetai]

I'm not reading through all 6 pages. How do you guys keep up with this?

Anyway, I will again say that I do not like the term. I'm not as hardcore against it as dsheinem is, but it does rub me the wrong way. Here is a bit of an example:

My brother-in-law would be classified by these terms by a lot of people. He has an X-Box 360 and spends most of his gaming time playing FPS games like the Gears of War series, Halo series, CoD, etc. He enjoys it when he's not working or whatever.

I notice him playing a fair bit when I chat to my sister on webcam. Yup, he plays a lot of "bro-games" or whatever you guys call them. Guess what? Every so often, he's playing something else. He went through a phase where he was addicted to Civilization. He was addicted to KoToR before. He's played through and owns SNES FFIII and Chrono Trigger (although I don't think he's touched them since 1996). I've even caught him playing shmups before. This is a guy who was considered "cool" in high school. He played hockey. He even played it professionally on a lower level. He wrestled in high school. He was a party guy and all the rest. He would be the very definition of "bro gamer"... except... when nobody was looking, he was busy going after Kefka in FFIII. He was helping out Frog in Chrono Trigger. He was trying to find his identity in KoToR. He set up a trading relationship between the Aztecs and the Chinese in Civilization. Guess what? He's not the only one like this.

Yet, being called a stereotypical name can make people feel shame for playing games outside of the "bro-standard." It segregates, which is the problem with it. It makes me feeling more like a nerd as a retro gamer and makes him feel more like a stereotypical brainless jock for playing mostly FPS games on his 360.

The solution? Stop using such idiotic stereotypical terms. They are more destructive than not, in my opinion.

[AppleQueso]

wait, Breetai, you mean to tell me that so-called "brogamers" are actaully... people!?

[o.pwuaioc]

Not all labels are created equal, so to speak. And it can evolve with time and common usage as well in some cases (like with the word "lame" I think).

Absolutely.

If you say someone that is French is "a frog", or that someone that is German is "a kraut" though, would that count already for you? I think that is closer to "dudebro" and "brogamer".

Is it? The point in asking would be to see if that's actually true. Merely reiterating that it's true doesn't prove anything.

If you are saying "some people play only Call of Duty" or that they are "Call of Duty gamers" and that is a fact, then there is no ostracism in my opinion. If you say they are "dudebro gamers" or "brogamers", there may not be, but probably there is.

I don't see why it should be. "Bro" is a common and positive appellation among many young males today. While I agree that if a more emic name is used (I seriously think that "dudebro" is at all emic, but brogamer is merely a bro who is a gamer), then that name should be adopted, but no one has actually provided any evidence that it's not commonly used, or that it's damaging.

Conversely when we use "retrogamer" (as we often do here in the forum I think), that is probably actually a positive remark. It is not simple, I guess...

Never simple, and cannot be so. If one actually wishes to embark on a socio-cultural understanding of "the bros" or to look at the continuity and change of video games and the proliferation of games popularly lauded by despised by self-labeled "retro gamers", it's actually beneficial to ask question similar to GameMasterGuy's. The only difference is in nuance and education.

Many among us would just like to play video games and not distinguish. But cannot the same arguments be leveled against anthropologists and historians? I don't think - yet I don't know - that that is what the op had in mind, but why not go that route? Or better yet, in order to understand how and why stereotypes happen in gaming, wouldn't it be better to ask questions about the one asking questions about "brogamers" instead of just silencing dissent? When has silencing opinions ever been effective?

Yet, being called a stereotypical name can make people feel shame for playing games outside of the "bro-standard."

So, is it to shame him into being the stereotype, as Breetai suggests, or to exert superiority for being more than just a "brogamer" as Dave and others have suggested?

[Breetai]

Yet, being called a stereotypical name can make people feel shame for playing games outside of the "bro-standard."

So, is it to shame him into being the stereotype, as Breetai suggests, or to exert superiority for being more than just a "brogamer" as Dave and others have suggested?

Both are forms of the same thing.

[o.pwuaioc]

Yet, being called a stereotypical name can make people feel shame for playing games outside of the "bro-standard."

So, is it to shame him into being the stereotype, as Breetai suggests, or to exert superiority for being more than just a "brogamer" as Dave and others have suggested?

Both are forms of the same thing.

Not always, by any means. I don't know of a single person here who wouldn't be ecstatic if a so-called "brogamer" would engage in a non-stereotypically "brogame"; or rather, I think many retro gamers who complain about the Halo and CoD types would be thrilled to learn that 2D platformers, verti shmups, and JRPGs other than Final Fantasy were regularly among the best selling games in America.

Am I just too blind to see everyone else's vitriol and too foolish to wish to shift the conversation to a more academic discourse?

[Mendoza]

Terms like this always strike me as the high pitched cry of "I totally liked this stuff before it was all mainstream, so im still special and your not " Get over yourself. This isn't like someone who is clearly not a gamer of any kind trying to pass themselves off as one by making some vague statement of playing pac-man once in the 80s, like half the celebs that get interviewed on G4 or Spike. Why attack another gamer just cause you don't like the games they like. Save some venom for someone that actually deserves it. Maybe like, I don't know, the next saber rattling d-bag politician looking to score easy points by attacking "those hardcore violent porn games" that seems to come around every couple of election cycles.

Its flippant and hateful at worst, and asinine and misguided at best.

[Ivo]

This is mostly a reply to o.pwuaioc (by the way, your username is a pain to type)

To make things even more confusing, some terms evolve the opposite way in some contexts. Like "pimp" and "bitch" being used endearingly nowadays, something which I find a bit hard to understand but anyway.

I'm also not sure if "bro" is used in a overwhelmingly positive manner, when it is used by someone to refer to a third party. I can imagine someone saying "He is just one of those "bros"" and meaning it condescendingly.

I don't know as I'm not French or German, but I think many of them would object to being referred as "frogs" or "krauts", and more often than not people referring to them by those terms are not being endearing at all. Is it just the intention that counts, as well? I don't think so, but it is a pretty big part of it. A problem is that it can be quite hard to know what the intention is/was... And it doesn't require a negatively charged nickname to stereotype, it is done with the factual nationality of the person(s) as well. So again it is not the label but the attitude that is the issue.

You can also use pretty much any positive adjective and mean it badly with sarcasm. It is a big mess.

In the end I simply feel it would be better if people were generally more accepting and even understanding about differences.

Ivo.

[o.pwuaioc]

I'm also not sure if "bro" is used in a overwhelmingly positive manner, when it is used by someone to refer to a third party. I can imagine someone saying "He is just one of those "bros"" and meaning it condescendingly.

...

I don't think so, but it is a pretty big part of it. A problem is that it can be quite hard to know what the intention is/was... And it doesn't require a negatively charged nickname to stereotype, it is done with the factual nationality of the person(s) as well. So again it is not the label but the attitude that is the issue.

You can also use pretty much any positive adjective and mean it badly with sarcasm. It is a big mess.

"Pft, don't listen to him, he's French." There "French" is used condescendingly. It's not the term, it's the way it's said. So yes, something like, "Breetai's brother-in-law? Whatever, he's just one of those bros" would be entirely wrong, while, "No, I doubt Craig would like Beat.Trip Runner. He's a brogamer, and I'm sure he'd much prefer Madden." You can easily compare that to, "No, I doubt Craig would like NCAA 2K14. He's a retrogamer, and I'm sure he'd much prefer this new 2D Mario platformer."

In the end I simply feel it would be better if people were generally more accepting and even understanding about differences.

Wholeheartedly agreed! I think shutting out debate on the subject eliminates the chance for understanding. You can force people to instantly change their perceptions, but only hope to understand and educate it.

[dsheinem]

wow o.p you've gone to town on this thread! I'll share a few quick responses to you:

So, I'm just wondering when and where this actual ostracism actually occurs? Labeling is one thing, but has anyone said, "Whoa, wait a minute, you can't do this or that, you're just a brogamer!"

I don't think the term is used to formally ghettoize people through labels in the way that you suggest here. I think, instead, that it is used by "non-brogamers" as a warrant to discount certain people's opinions about games as a whole based on their playing habits. This kind of labeling is more often damaging to the community that uses it because it is a discursive practice that closes off membership...you are probably right if you are suggesting that it is much less frequently damaging to the actual "dudebros".

Many among us would just like to play video games and not distinguish. But cannot the same arguments be leveled against anthropologists and historians? I don't think - yet I don't know - that that is what the op had in mind, but why not go that route? Or better yet, in order to understand how and why stereotypes happen in gaming, wouldn't it be better to ask questions about the one asking questions about "brogamers" instead of just silencing dissent? When has silencing opinions ever been effective?

Understanding why stereotypes happen in any culture is absolutely an important and useful endeavor, but I don't know that historical/anthropological work must precede one's stating of observations about a behavior going on in that culture. I haven't tried to silence opinions, just suggest that the use of a stereotype in an effort to express those opinions ultimately isn't very useful as it is grounded in elitism and ignorance and thus (for me at least) makes whatever statement one attaches to the term look elitist and ignorant by association. When it happens repeatedly across a community, it makes that community look elitist and ignorant. I would never want to "censor" or "ban" it or any such thing, but I do think it deserves censure (thus this thread).

Am I just too blind to see everyone else's vitriol and too foolish to wish to shift the conversation to a more academic discourse?

In my experience "academic discourse" usually goes over like a lead balloon here. That said, I think your thoughts in this thread have helped shift the conversation away from the "bah, all stereotypes are the same and they aren't a big deal" rhetoric that was flavoring the earlier comments. So, kudos.

Yet, being called a stereotypical name can make people feel shame for playing games outside of the "bro-standard." It segregates, which is the problem with it. It makes me feeling more like a nerd as a retro gamer and makes him feel more like a stereotypical brainless jock for playing mostly FPS games on his 360.

Breetai, I really liked your above post and example. I can think of plenty of very smart, very engaged and interesting human beings who spend the vast majority of their gaming time playing only FPS titles and/or sports titles, and the "dumb jock" / "frat guy" sentiment behind most of the uses of "brogamer" that I've encountered just do not fit at all.