Panzer Dragoon Saga Question(s)

[anonymous1980]

Not to steal your thunder or anything, but unless my definition of random encounters is wrong..... PDS totally has random encounters .

Yeah, you're right, i forgot. Most of them are unmemorable, so they passed my mind.

That's what we like to call "depth".

Nope, that's what we call a convoluted mess of a level design that hinders enjoyment. I loved the atmosphere and the immersiveness though; They nailed the feeling of being truly alone.

Uniqueness is one thing. Greatness is another. PDS is a fine game, that is unique and interesting. But it's not a great game.

I disagree, i think it's a great game.

[Menegrothx]

It's a great game, and i highly enjoyed playing it. It's easily the best 5th generation JRPG.

Easily better than Suikoden 1&2, Final Fantasy Tactics, Final Fantasy 7/8/9, PS1 versions of Lunar games, Tactics Ogre, Xenogears, Parasite Eve etc? Even amongst Panzer Dragoon Saga fans on RPG forums, statement like that raises eyebrows. There was so much good stuff coming out during that time period that you really have to question that. Like I said, I respect the art direction, storyline and battle system of this game, but they're really not that great that I'd rate this game higher than any other contemporary JRPG.
Because of that, I must say that this is wrong

I played it in 2012 for the first time, and its design blew me away. It's like the developers took a trip into the future, and tried to create a modern JRPG on a 5th generation system. PDS is light years ahead of any JRPG from its time in design.

FF Tactics, Suikoden 1&2, Parasite Eve and Xenogears had mature storylines.
Parasite eve had also a unique combat system, combining JRPG with survival horror and FF tactics (and the Ogre games, from what I've gathered) have some of the deepest battle systems out of any JRPG.

It did do things right and unique enough to be considered better than most of the cookie cutter RPGs of that time (Wild Arms, Grandia, Legend of Dragoon etc)

[Violent By Design]

It's a great game, and i highly enjoyed playing it. It's easily the best 5th generation JRPG.

Easily better than Suikoden 1&2, Final Fantasy Tactics, Final Fantasy 7/8/9, PS1 versions of Lunar games, Tactics Ogre, Xenogears, Parasite Eve etc? Even amongst Panzer Dragoon Saga fans on RPG forums, statement like that raises eyebrows. There was so much good stuff coming out during that time period that you really have to question that. Like I said, I respect the art direction, storyline and battle system of this game, but they're really not that great that I'd rate this game higher than any other contemporary JRPG.
Because of that, I must say that this is wrong

Hey, one of those gotta be the best .

[MulishaSoldier929]

It's a great game, and i highly enjoyed playing it. It's easily the best 5th generation JRPG.

Easily better than Suikoden 1&2, Final Fantasy Tactics, Final Fantasy 7/8/9, PS1 versions of Lunar games, Tactics Ogre, Xenogears, Parasite Eve etc? Even amongst Panzer Dragoon Saga fans on RPG forums, statement like that raises eyebrows. There was so much good stuff coming out during that time period that you really have to question that. Like I said, I respect the art direction, storyline and battle system of this game, but they're really not that great that I'd rate this game higher than any other contemporary JRPG.
Because of that, I must say that this is wrong

Hey, one of those gotta be the best .

I played Lunar on Sega CD. Tho I saw potential, I quit due to boredness. Lots of grinding. Haven't played Grandia, but i have played the sequel on the DC which I am assuming is better than the first? Anyways great game but no PDS IMO. Not saying its the best rpg 5th gen. Because I haven't played enough to make that conclusion. Just the best one i have played.

[BogusMeatFactory]

It's a great game, and i highly enjoyed playing it. It's easily the best 5th generation JRPG.

Easily better than Suikoden 1&2, Final Fantasy Tactics, Final Fantasy 7/8/9, PS1 versions of Lunar games, Tactics Ogre, Xenogears, Parasite Eve etc? Even amongst Panzer Dragoon Saga fans on RPG forums, statement like that raises eyebrows. There was so much good stuff coming out during that time period that you really have to question that. Like I said, I respect the art direction, storyline and battle system of this game, but they're really not that great that I'd rate this game higher than any other contemporary JRPG.
Because of that, I must say that this is wrong

I played it in 2012 for the first time, and its design blew me away. It's like the developers took a trip into the future, and tried to create a modern JRPG on a 5th generation system. PDS is light years ahead of any JRPG from its time in design.

FF Tactics, Suikoden 1&2, Parasite Eve and Xenogears had mature storylines.
Parasite eve had also a unique combat system, combining JRPG with survival horror and FF tactics (and the Ogre games, from what I've gathered) have some of the deepest battle systems out of any JRPG.

It did do things right and unique enough to be considered better than most of the cookie cutter RPGs of that time (Wild Arms, Grandia, Legend of Dragoon etc)

Would it be safer to say that it is one of the best 5th generation RPGs? I personally agreed with the user in saying that it is the best, but that is just me. People look for different things in everything so it will forever be disputed, which is just fine.

[Ben]

I just thought I would throw my hat into the ring on this topic, as someone who bought Panzer Dragon Saga when it came out (as well as all of the other RPGs people have thrown out as contenders for the best 5th generation game). I think at the end of the day it's all about personal opinion and there is no wrong answer to the whole question of the best 5th gen RPG. Before I make my argument for Panzer Dragon Saga, let me say that I am ultimately a Sega loyalist, but I always bought whatever platform Squaresoft supported for their RPGs (so I ended up with a Playstation when FFVII hit) in addition to the Sega console.

I think when you ask this question, there are three major factors to consider:
1. What was the game trying to achieve, and how successfully did it do that?
2. Given the technical limits of its platform, how well did it take advantage of it relative to games released in its time period?
3. Since RPGs are inherently story centric (or IMHO should be) was it just a cookie cutter fantasy plot or did it try to offer some sort of social or philosophical commentary?

1. So let's look at point number 1. My take is that Panzer Dragoon Saga wins this one hands down, it tried to incorporate RPG story and structure elements while getting rid of tedious leveling and dungeon crawling. It also attempted to create its own visual feel and atmosphere, I understand that a lot of people don't like it, but I don't think you can make the argument that any 5th gen game really captures the same look. Where I think it really shines is that it tried to incorporate cinematic FMV and voice acting that was in its infancy at this point, and did so better than any other game in the genre.

Let me compare it on this front to my other personal best 5th gen contender, Xenogears. These games could not be more polar opposite to me on this front; Xenogears tried to go beyond even what Panzer Dragoon Saga did, but it didn't achieve it. Xenogears had two battle systems (both innovative with the combo/deathblow system and the Gear battles), it had anime cutscenes, CGI FMV, and in game rendered cutscenes that pushed the PSX to its limit. The first disc of Xenogears, to me, had it continued in the same quality on Disc 2 would have been the greatest game of all time. But it didn't, whether Squaresoft slashed the budget, deadlines were missed, or whatever happened, the game ended up being rushed and never realized it's full potential. The fact that you needed the Perfect Works Book to really wrap up the plot and bookend the game is proof of that.

So, does a game that is fully self contained and achieved what it set out to do beat a game that tried to utterly go beyond anything that had been done before? I'm not sure honestly, if hard pressed I think I would take Panzer Dragoon Saga over Xenogears, but it's a tough choice. I don't think there's a right one, but it's worth asking whether it's better to come short spectacularly or confine your vision to your budget and circumstances.

2. I think the answer to how far it pushed its boundaries depends entirely on your age, and when you played the game. I drove all over my town and couldn't get Panzer Dragoon Saga anywhere, I ended up settling for a used copy at a pawn shop of all places maybe two months after it came out. Needless to say, I had been really deflated after telling PSX fans that 98 was going to be our year, based on all of the upcoming games (almost none of which saw U.S. release in the end of course), and this was it, the last hurrah of the Saturn in the U.S. To me, it blew away anything that I had played to that point in terms of how it integrated the combat system with the regular engine (compared to a Final Fantasy VII that never really achieved the graphics the marketing campaign led you into, and to me always felt like two different games meshed together somehow). I know you can say "Well, what about FF IX" or something along those lines, but I don't think you can compare a release that came out at the tail end of the life cycle of the PSX to it; based on its contemporaries it really stood out at the time and the graphics pushed the Saturn to its limit. Now, when you play the game fresh today, you don't get that experience, so I don't think it's fair for me to judge whether it holds up.

3. Once again, in terms of story, I think it's a contest between Panzer Dragoon Saga and Xenogears. I don't want to give away spoilers given how few people have played the game in English, I think I will simply say this: the two games both go to the highest level of story telling in the genre of RPGs, they tackle issues of religion, philosophy and the way humans should interact with each other (and the world at large). I think both come to different conclusions in terms of the role of spirituality and the supernatural (God, or whatever you want to call it), and again it's up to personal taste. I think the ending of Panzer Dragoon Saga left me more satisfied than Xenogears, so that for me is the deciding factor in its favor.

[pierrot]

I would personally easily put PDS ahead of the Final Fantasy games, and Parasite Eve (which really isn't very much survival horror, and has such a crap-tastic story) but Suikoden 1 and 2 are tough for me. I love those games too much. I think it's at least on par or better than everything else that was mentioned. I'm playing Grandia on the Saturn right now, and while it's very technically impressive, and pretty good in general, it drags like and limps like a zombie after a while.

I think it would be silly to call PDS the undisputed king of 5th gen RPGs, because as bogus mentioned, opinions play a role in all of these things, but I also don't think anyone has really said anything like that to begin with. What it sounded like to, and maybe to others, initially, Menegroth, was that because PDS didn't live up to your expectations (which may have been too high to begin with?) it is therefore garbage.

I don't know if anyone would dispute that it's not worth the asking price of the Western release. I certainly don't think it is, but maybe the price is affecting your feelings of the actual game? I do inevitably feel that PDS is quite a good game that is one of the better experiences the 5th generation has to offer. I constantly wanted to get the best battle rank in each battle, which made me study each enemy very closely, and even restart on some bosses. The battle system never became tiresome for me, and at times I was more interested in battling new enemies in new areas, than progressing to see more of the story, which was also very enjoyable for me.

[Ben]

I would personally easily put PDS ahead of the Final Fantasy games, and Parasite Eve (which really isn't very much survival horror, and has such a crap-tastic story) but Suikoden 1 and 2 are tough for me. I love those games too much. I think it's at least on par or better than everything else that was mentioned. I'm playing Grandia on the Saturn right now, and while it's very technically impressive, and pretty good in general, it drags like and limps like a zombie after a while.

I think it would be silly to call PDS the undisputed king of 5th gen RPGs, because as bogus mentioned, opinions play a role in all of these things, but I also don't think anyone has really said anything like that to begin with. What it sounded like to, and maybe to others, initially, Menegroth, was that because PDS didn't live up to your expectations (which may have been too high to begin with?) it is therefore garbage.

I don't know if anyone would dispute that it's not worth the asking price of the Western release. I certainly don't think it is, but maybe the price is affecting your feelings of the actual game? I do inevitably feel that PDS is quite a good game that is one of the better experiences the 5th generation has to offer. I constantly wanted to get the best battle rank in each battle, which made me study each enemy very closely, and even restart on some bosses. The battle system never became tiresome for me, and at times I was more interested in battling new enemies in new areas, than progressing to see more of the story, which was also very enjoyable for me.

You know, I think the thing you really hit on is that the way you feel about that battle system defines it for you. I don't think I've known one person who said "I hated the battle system, but the story won me over". You also make a good point about the price; it's easy to go into FFVII-IX with low expectations since you can get a $10 Greatest Hits copy at a flea market, but given the almost legendary reputation this game has built up (plus the equally legendary price for a U.S. copy) it's an impossibly high bar for a lot of people. Really, I think these "best X gen game of X genre" debates aren't as useful as maybe making a thread like "Why you SHOULD play Panzer Dragoon Saga, if you can" or something like that.

[BogusMeatFactory]

I constantly wanted to get the best battle rank in each battle, which made me study each enemy very closely, and even restart on some bosses. The battle system never became tiresome for me, and at times I was more interested in battling new enemies in new areas, than progressing to see more of the story, which was also very enjoyable for me.

This is one of the biggest reasons as to why I feel that this is one of the best RPGs of all time. A lot of RPGs bogged you down with a lot of menus and complex mechanics that never morphed or changed. If you had a 40 hour game, you had 40 hours of the same gameplay that never felt different or felt unique. With the mechanics in PDS, there were a lot of incorporated strategic elements that were not a trial and error effort. You knew that the red zones were a bad place to stay. Add to it the dragon morphing and you had a dynamic character that changed based on how you, the player liked to play.

Add to it the index of enemies and a lot of secrets in the game and you were very encouraged to explore the world. You actively sought combat because it was the most fun aspect of the game. I am shocked that no game has ever mimicked its systems.

[Ben]

I constantly wanted to get the best battle rank in each battle, which made me study each enemy very closely, and even restart on some bosses. The battle system never became tiresome for me, and at times I was more interested in battling new enemies in new areas, than progressing to see more of the story, which was also very enjoyable for me.

This is one of the biggest reasons as to why I feel that this is one of the best RPGs of all time. A lot of RPGs bogged you down with a lot of menus and complex mechanics that never morphed or changed. If you had a 40 hour game, you had 40 hours of the same gameplay that never felt different or felt unique. With the mechanics in PDS, there were a lot of incorporated strategic elements that were not a trial and error effort. You knew that the red zones were a bad place to stay. Add to it the dragon morphing and you had a dynamic character that changed based on how you, the player liked to play.

Add to it the index of enemies and a lot of secrets in the game and you were very encouraged to explore the world. You actively sought combat because it was the most fun aspect of the game. I am shocked that no game has ever mimicked its systems.

You know, I think that a lot of it probably comes down to the lack of interest in really developing quality RPGs since the 6th gen. Even Tetsuya Takahashi (Xenogears director/Monolith Soft founder) said that he thought by doing the Xenosaga games for Namco he would get to realize his vision for that series, but by then the trend was going towards smaller budgets and staff while everyone knew that online MMORPGs with their pay to play and in game stores/add ons were the future. By episodes II and III they had already been compromised in terms of what they wanted to do with the battle system. I'm not saying it couldn't be done again, but it would take a studio AND publisher that really cared about quality (and had the staff to do it).