Suggest a SNK fighter for me

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Lodestar
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Post by Lodestar »

marurun wrote:Well, Lodestar may believe what he's stating, but he's way off the mark. Even serious Neo Geo enthusiasts have been rating the DC release as just about perfect.

http://www.neo-geo.com/reviews/dc-revie ... tw-dc.html

Now, he's talking about the Japanese release, but the US release of MoTW is altered less than the Last Blade 2 release here in the US, so his worries turned out to be largely unfounded.
Neo Geo "enthusiasts" wouldn't know crap if they're not familiar with the ins and outs of the game and how it works. I've talked to some of the best players in this game (Nocturnal, being one of them) and they'll all tell you that the DC port is inferior to the PS2 port. MAME might not be perfect, but it's the emulator of choice for this game, as you'll see everyone using it to play the game on Kaillera. FBA is better, but that's only used on GGPO at the moment. (I highly recommend everyone download GGPO if you're all into netplay)

With the DC port, there are timing issues and problems with the streamed sound, as others have mentioned already. If you've been playing the DC port from the start, then I it's unlikely that you'd notice. (There are reasons the DC port is not used for tournaments and competitive play)
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Post by Ack »

I love name dropping in arguments. I love it even more when nobody knows who you're talking about.
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marurun
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Post by marurun »

Lodestar wrote:With the DC port, there are timing issues and problems with the streamed sound, as others have mentioned already. If you've been playing the DC port from the start, then I it's unlikely that you'd notice. (There are reasons the DC port is not used for tournaments and competitive play)
I did a side-by-side test emulating the Neo Geo original and the DC version. There are no streaming sound issues on the DC port that I can find. Unless you can provide some evidence of the problem over and above your anecdotal statements we cannot take it seriously. The burden of proof is on the one who makes the statement, not those who wish to disprove it.

And while I'm not a tournament quality player, the moves do feel just fine to me. I suspect the biggest reason the Neo Geo version is used in tournaments instead of the DC version is that ROM carts are always preferable to a CD medium and there's no lack of MVS hardware out there.

Again, give use some info to back up your claims, not just dropping names. Point us to a few informed threads, statements by tournament players, or direct video evidence of the "streaming sound" issues. As it stands I see lots of claims and no evidence, and my informal investigation into the issue has revealed little to back up your claims.
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Post by Lodestar »

I love name dropping in arguments. I love it even more when nobody knows who you're talking about.
I love pointless, snide remarks that add absolutely nothing to the conversation at hand. If you think it's solely about name dropping--then you're severely mistaken. However, credible players usually have valid opinions because they have the most experience with the game...something "enthusiasts" do not. Besides, I'm finding it difficult to take the opinion of 'Rade Kuruc' seriously when there are statements like this in his review: "This game is smooth like a hot dick through pussy."

And honestly, if you're a part of the MOTW scene, online or offline, you should know who some of the most respected players are...and if you don't, no big deal, but discrediting a name drop just because you don't know who the person is, is quite dumb. (http://youtube.com/user/JaimeDL)

Of course, I could have linked a credible source in my previous post, but I really don't see the need to because an informed search will probably yield the same results (SRK forums, would be a good start). This game isn't that popular, so I'd be going out of my way to look for sources to prove something that's as trivial as this (not to say it isn't substantial enough to warrant getting another port instead).

Anyway, marurun, I'm not sure why you're saying the burden of proof is on me. The burden of proof is on you, because you're the one claiming that you don't have any of the flaws that many other people have already experienced. You DO realize that by you saying you did comparison play-throughs is shadier than me dropping a name? In the end, it's just your word vs. mine, except my opinion isn't mine alone. Maybe there are a few exceptions here and there (assuming you're all telling the truth), but at this point, you're still arguing over a port that no one uses for competitive play at all. There are better alternatives out there and I don't see the point of recommending an inferior port.

That's all.
Last edited by Lodestar on Thu May 22, 2008 4:18 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Post by Ack »

Lodestar wrote:
I love name dropping in arguments. I love it even more when nobody knows who you're talking about.
I love pointless, snide remarks that add absolutely nothing to the conversation at hand. If you think it's solely about name dropping--then you're severely mistaken. However, credible players usually have valid opinions because they have the most experience with the game...something "enthusiasts" do not.

And honestly, if you're a part of the MOTW scene, online or offline, you should know who some of the most respected players are...and if you don't, no big deal, but discrediting a name drop just because you don't know who the person is, is quite dumb. (http://youtube.com/user/JaimeDL)

Of course, I could have linked a credible source in my previous post, but I really don't see the need to because an informed search will probably yield the same results (SRK forums, maybe?). This game isn't that popular, so I'd be going out of my way to look for sources to prove something that's as trivial as this (not to say it isn't substantial enough to warrant getting another port instead).


Anyway, marurun, I'm not sure why you're saying the burden of proof is on me. The burden of proof is on you, because you're the one claiming that you don't have any of the flaws that many other people have experienced. Maybe there are a few exceptions here and there (assuming you're all telling the truth), but at this point, you're still arguing over a port that no one uses for competitive play at all. There are better alternatives out there and I don't see the point of recommending an inferior port.

That's all.
Chief, I bring up the name dropping bit because I don't pay attention to tournaments. Who is Nocturnal? Is he the MOTW equivalent to UT's Fatal1ty? And for that matter, why should I care what a single individual thinks in regards to a tournament game? Perhaps he's only good at one version of the title. I've met tournament gamers who could only play one version of a specific title. Change the server or the gametype by just a fraction, and all their skill went to nothing. So why should one care what they think?

Now, if you say that the entire tournament community agrees, then perhaps it gives the argument a little more credence. Marurun doesn't see a difference. Apparently you do Lodestar. And as you're willing to say this is just a trivial argument, I don't think you should have been as bothered by his comments to begin with.

Also, I don't believe using the lack of a tournament group to represent that one is an inferior title. Plenty of inferior titles have tournament leagues. Look at Daikatana. Hell, some series that I would argue have inferior ports have leagues for those ports. A lack of a tournament does not seem to be a deciding factor for the quality of gameplay.

Either way, the entire argument is idiotic. You don't like the DC version, and neither do many other players on the tournament scene. Ok, that's cool. Marurun likes that particular port, and he recommends it to others. I've only recently gotten into SNK titles, so I couldn't even tell you what game we're talking about. Frankly, the whole flame war shouldn't have started with either side demanding the other instead recommend their particular copy. Instead it should have simply been a case of "Well, I don't think so. I've seen some say they had issues with X or Y in that particular port." Not giving orders. But you're right, my statement was rude, so I will apologize for it. Lodestar, I'm sorry.

There's a saying about internet arguments: They're like the Special Olympics. Even if you win, you're still retarded. So I will now try to break down the issue here.

Lodestar, you dislike the DC port because of some sound discrepancies, and timing issues with those moves. The Neo Geo tournament community agrees with you.

Marurun, you prefer the DC port, having played it a good bit. You've noticed the sound issue, but having started on this port, there is no timing issue for you.

So here's my advice to the others interested in the title. If you have a Neo Geo, or prefer using MAME, pick up Lodestar's recommendation. If you own a DC, try Marurun's. If you've never played the game, the timing won't be such a big problem as you won't be used to it anyway. If you've tried one, stick with it as the other may throw you off.

Marurun, Lodestar, does this work for you?
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Post by Lodestar »

I was done, anyway. Also, don't mistake this for a flame war, because it isn't.
Who is Nocturnal? Is he the MOTW equivalent to UT's Fatal1ty?
No, he's not. But as far as I know, there isn't ONE big household name for this game that I know of. There aren't any famous Garou videos out there that'll expose some famous Justin Wong or Daigo equivalents, either. This is primarily due to the popularity of the game being less than that of UT or 3S. I mean, c'mon, that famous 3S video featuring Justin Wong vs. Daigo was even featured on College Humor, of all sites. The point I'm trying to make is that this game really isn't popular enough to have some well-known players that are recognized by people who don't even play the game. Of course, I know of a few good players from around the world (in the U.S., France and Japan), but I guess I can't expect casual players to know who they are, let alone care. (Don't mistake this for elitism or I'll stab you in the heart)

So, if you're asking if he has hardware with his name on it, then no...I'm afraid Garou isn't mainstream enough for his name to be plastered on XFX hardware and used as a marketing tool. (That's the only reason I knew about Fatality, by the way.)
Perhaps he's only good at one version of the title. I've met tournament gamers who could only play one version of a specific title. Change the server or the gametype by just a fraction, and all their skill went to nothing. So why should one care what they think?
There aren't any Street Fighter-type changes in the different ports of Garou. Someone who plays the Neo Geo version could still play the Dreamcast version and know how to play (assuming they could just magically adapt to the controller). Sure, they might not be at their best, but their skills wouldn't just go to waste. You can't say the same for someone who plays Street Fighter on arcade and tries to play the SNES version later - it's not going to work out very well.

Garou also has two different ROMs, set 1 and set 2. There are virtually no differences other than set 2 not displaying "counter" on counter hits, I believe. So even with MAME, playing those two seemingly identical ROMs would not cause one to lose their ability (not unless they played the horrid prototype ROM).

So why do I consider Nocturnal a great player that's worthy of mention? He has innovated with the game and exposed new glitches and combos in the game that no one else has exploited yet at the time of his discovery. He knows the game much better than I or anyone in this thread does, and could easily hang with Japan's players. He can play on both pad AND stick and do everything on both--not to mention he can use every character and is capable of performing each of their moves (when you factor in feint combos, this is quite a feat). That's good enough for me...so there's no reason to believe he can't play a certain port of the game, when he has already proved that he can.
Also, I don't believe using the lack of a tournament group to represent that one is an inferior title. Plenty of inferior titles have tournament leagues. Look at Daikatana. Hell, some series that I would argue have inferior ports have leagues for those ports. A lack of a tournament does not seem to be a deciding factor for the quality of gameplay.
This doesn't apply in the fighting game community unless a certain version is too difficult to obtain or too expensive. Still, tournament play will most likely feature the original title on its native hardware and not a port. Again, your points are interesting, but the FPS and fighting game genres are entirely different. Let me reiterate that the Dreamcast port is not used for a reason.


Anyway, I guess I should ask what the thread starter intends to do if he gets into the game. If he's just going to play the A.I., then I don't see a problem with playing the DC port--except he won't get anything out of the game because the A.I. in Garou is broken and not very fun to play (instant counters and cheap moves like performing charge moves without holding back or down, etc.). It's very primitive.
Last edited by Lodestar on Thu May 22, 2008 4:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by marurun »

I agree with Lodestar. This isn't a flame war. I've been a little insistent but I haven't accused him of anything nor have I (intentionally) insulted him (as far as I know).
Lodestar wrote:Still, tournament play will most likely feature the original title on its native hardware and not a port.
...
Let me reiterate that the Dreamcast port is not used for a reason.
Given the first sentence there it seems the most likely reason is that people just tend to prefer the original hardware. Again, I would like some evidence. If there is a thread you can point me to which discusses these differences I would like to look into them.

Move timing issues are the kind of thing that can be difficult to observe without repeated trials and knowing exactly what you are looking for, so if I don't perceive a timing different and there is one there that could be a reason. But then, people who claim those differences exist could be largely imagining them or experiencing them because of a different play environment than differences in the software coding of the port.

As for the sound issues, as I said, I just can't find them. I have my Dreamcast hooked up to my 17" LCD monitor with sound running into, and back out of, my PC and I switched back and forth between the emulated version and the DC version and I could hear any timing differences. I spent most of my time in the DC version with Kushnood Butt in practice mode. I did several moves repeatedly listening for timing delays and stuff that sounded off or out of place. I identified a couple candidates and then switched to emulated using Nebula (I prefer it to MAME for Neo Geo games). I went into some matches instead of practice mode and tried using those moves that I though might be suspect. To my ears the timing sounded the same. I'm pretty sensitive to sounds (I get MP3/compression fatigue really fast compared to some other people, for example) and I was certain I would have noticed something but there was nothing to hear.

So, while I like being "right", I'd rather be correct. If you know a couple good discussions about this point me to them. Likewise, if you think I should modify how I've done my testing a little please share. As a non-tournament player the DC versions mechanics seem spot on, but I admit that's where I'm most likely to mis-perceive. With the sounds, though, I should be able to hear a problem, and it ain't happening. So suggest how I can make it happen, please.
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Post by Lodestar »

http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=139385

Also, to add to my list of differences, there are also missing frames in attacks. I didn't know that, but I just confirmed with someone else and it's true.
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Post by marurun »

I tend not to knock missing frames. The Dreamcast does only have so much memory available, and a few missing frames don't hurt gameplay much. I'm most interested in this sound problem that I can't seem to replicate or experience.

Which means I shall read your offered materials.
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Post by racketboy »

MOTW still has plenty of frames -- much more than most 2D fighters.
It's more of a visual appeal issue than gameplay altering.

And with the audio streaming, are you sure they aren't playing the ripped game? The burned rip of MOTW isn't nearly as good as the real thing.
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