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Wait, wait, changing Kratos as a character is a bad thing?



Id love to see him change or evolve into something other than the petulant child he has been the whole series.

I can understand making the creative choice to not have violence against women in the game, but considering how the franchise is built on male power fantasy it feels half-hearted at best. Do they really think that this move will get people other than their core demographic to buy this game?

As for the medusas and harpys, they are not humans so it really doesn't apply. Like in hollywood if its not human its ok to splatter it all over the place (well maybe except for dogs)

Does anyone think this is similar to the gripes people had about not being able to kill kids in games like Fallout 3 ? There were lots of female enemies in that game and they could be dismembered at will, in fact by sheer number there were probably more acts of violence against women in that game than in the whole God of War series (assuming you exclude female monsters)

At the end of the day violence is violence. Id rather not see unnecessary violence against women, but at the end of the day im not going to be too pissed at this kind of game for including it. It's not like its going to surprise me.

Seriously, Threetoed, who are you arguing against? Who said anything about feminists promoting a double standard? Who said that anyone promotes the idea that violence agaisnt men is good? Who the hell said that feminists hate men? Who said anything you are complaining about?

Stop arguing with people who don't exist!

History and context. History and context.

History: Anyone who has even a modicum of understanding about the influences that shape the games will easily recognize that Kratos is a caricatured sendup of a long tradition of exaggerated, stereotyped Spartan warriors who fight, fuck, murder, and plunder without regard for age, sex, color, creed, etc. I can't imagine anyone looks to Kratos as an exemplar on successful human relationships. Anyone who thinks that his treatment of women is worth emulating has plenty of other problems to draw those conclusions from a game such as this. His uncaring "petulance" is exactly what it should be for the character as he's been presented thus far, a character that is an amalgam of historical stereotypes.

Context: That said, I do believe when the devs say that "giving people a look at Kratos' human side so fans can relate to him better and understand some of the stuff he went through when he was younger" that these changes are meant to "explain" how he became that caricature that we've seen in the other games. I am sure that story, in keeping with series tradition, will be rife with tropes and obviousness, but it does make sense from a story perspective. It isn't necessarily "pussying out" so much as creating a character that is a bit different based on the timeline.

threetoed: I have posted many times on the forum about gender issues, and I do think that there is a "gender problem" in game culture that includes but far exceeds the content in the games themselves. However, the violence in God of War is a very poor target for outrage on this issue, as any basic understanding of the series (or the violence as it takes place in the context of the games) would quickly undercut any serious objections one could make. I get the sense that you have seen some videos of violence and claim to know what's going on. It seems obvious to me that you have guessed incorrectly.

Others: "uppity" is a word that does have a long tradition of being associated with degradation based on race or ethnicity, especially towards blacks. A dictionary probably won't show you this, but the historical context for the word - especially in the southern US and especially in conversation - has been "uppity nigger". I guess it is good that not everyone knows this - it might mean that the connotation of the term is starting to change as forthright racism has declined, but there is that history there, and you should be aware that the word DOES still connote racism to many.

threetoed wrote:It's not about removing female enemies, it's about getting rid of the sexualized violence that is done almost always to women (or other minorities).

How are women a minority?

Why is "sexualized" violence any worse than killing and torturing people for fun and laughing about it in games like Postal and GTA? It's still censorship.

dsheinem wrote:History and context. History and context.

History: Anyone who has even a modicum of understanding about the influences that shape the games will easily recognize that Kratos is a caricatured sendup of a long tradition of exaggerated, stereotyped Spartan warriors who fight, fuck, murder, and plunder without regard for age, sex, color, creed, etc. I can't imagine anyone looks to Kratos as an exemplar on successful human relationships. Anyone who thinks that his treatment of women is worth emulating has plenty of other problems to draw those conclusions from a game such as this. His uncaring "petulance" is exactly what it should be for the character as he's been presented thus far, a character that is an amalgam of historical stereotypes.

Yes, Kratos is part of a long tradition of stereotypical Spartan warriors. Except, as people with slightly more than just a modicum of understanding about history might know, there is (at least) one ancient stereotype about Spartan warriors that Kratos hasn't yet fulfilled: that they have sex with adolescent boys. This is because Kratos isn't just a collection of stereotypes that came fully formed to David Jaffe and his team. They made him; they decided what to take from that tradition and what to leave behind.

I think that you would be hard pressed to argue that the God of War series disapproves of Kratos' actions. He's meant to look cool, capable, and both sexually and physically powerful. In short, he is meant to be a male fantasy and the games give you the opportunity to live it out. Of course, no one thinks that people are trying to emulate Kratos directly (Athena doesn't respond to a lot of Twitter DMs), it still informs people's views of what is masculine. Further, studies suggest that seeing sexualized violence against women in games can cause men to downplay the seriousness of rape in real life.

dsheinem wrote:However, the violence in God of War is a very poor target for outrage on this issue, as any basic understanding of the series (or the violence as it takes place in the context of the games) would quickly undercut any serious objections one could make.

I want to make sure that I am understanding you correctly here. Your argument is that you can't criticize violent games for being violent because they are violent? That's certainly a claim one could make, but you're probably going to have to provide some support for it.

It seems like many of you are claiming that, "God of War is violent because that was the studio's vision. You can't criticize someone's vision. Therefore you can't criticize God of War for being violent."

You must have a low opinion of video games as a medium then. An artist's vision stops being uncritically accepted about the time that their parents stop hanging every fingerpainting they do on the refrigerator door. In art, the creator has to be accountable for what they produce, including being criticized for it. It's how art improves; through a conversation between creators and critics. If you shut out the critics, you get Star Wars Eps 1-3.

dsheinem wrote:I get the sense that you have seen some videos of violence and claim to know what's going on. It seems obvious to me that you have guessed incorrectly.

Oh, seriously, the God of War series is about violent revenge? You're kidding me right, all this time I thought it was a 3D update of Dig Dug 2.

Don't be an idiot.

threetoed wrote: Kratos isn't just a collection of stereotypes that came fully formed to David Jaffe and his team. They made him; they decided what to take from that tradition and what to leave behind.

This doesn't in any way rebut my argument about the historical precedent for the character. I am not sure why you are even bringing it up.

Kraots...still informs people's views of what is masculine. Further, studies suggest that seeing sexualized violence against women in games can cause men to downplay the seriousness of rape in real life.

I agree with this, too - to a point. I said that people aren't looking to Kratos as an example of relationships since all of his turn to shit. He can certainly be a symbol of masculinity in some respects (e.g. physique) and not in others (e.g. dealings with women). Like I said previosuly, if people DO decide to emulate him in harmful ways, or to take in-game displays of sexualized violence as some kind of tacit cultural approval of those acts, then they have much more severe problems than their choice of entertainment.

threetoed wrote:I want to make sure that I am understanding you correctly here. Your argument is that you can't criticize violent games for being violent because they are violent? That's certainly a claim one could make, but you're probably going to have to provide some support for it.

My argument is that the vast majority of violence in God of War, especially against women, isn't just mindless "violence for the sake of violence." It is violence that is character driven, story driven, genre driven, etc. You are essentially arguing that this game is bad becasue it is violent. I am suggesting that is as naive as suggesting that horror films, kung-fu films, etc. are somehow inherently bad if they too feature stylized or even sexualized violence against women. It paints the audience as stupid and uncritical in their own processing of the media they consume.

"You can't criticize someone's vision."

I haven't seen anyone argue this point. It is a straw man argument.

rant about "how art improves"

I'll spare you my critique of this nonsensical rambling about art. I assume you regretted typing it as soon as you hit "submit."

dsheinem wrote:I get the sense that you have seen some videos of violence and claim to know what's going on. It seems obvious to me that you have guessed incorrectly.

Oh, seriously, the God of War series is about violent revenge? You're kidding me right, all this time I thought it was a 3D update of Dig Dug 2.

Don't be an idiot.

Hooray for personal attacks! A giant "fuck you, douche-bag!" to you too!

My point, which you missed, was that all your arguments about the game so far stem from broad sweeping generalizations about the games, Kratos himself, Jaffe, etc. You also pointed to one video that, frankly, ignores the context for the scene shown.

I think there are problems with God of War and its cultural influence, but I don't think that the treatment of women in the game is really one of them. I think you are stirring up shit because you have nothing better to do, that you haven't played the games, and that you are frequently mischaracterizing the arguments of many of the people in this thread for the sake of pushing an argument that has no merit in the first place.

So feel free to abandon thread.

Meh~ If people really have such a big problem not being able to destroy a female baddie from attacking you in the newest GoW, go complain to the developers. Nothing we're talking about here matters in terms of getting the game to be how it "should be".

I say there should be an enemy comprised completely of boobs.

Threetoed sure has some uppity arguments in this thread.

Yeah, I've read the entire thread and it seems like someone has some very deep-seated issues. I understand threetoed might not have agreed with what another poster said, but come on, we get that you disagree, enough is enough. I honestly don't care if GoW won't have female enemies - what a dumb issue to argue about. Some people really can blow anything out of proportion and turn a generally meaningless topic into a personal tirade.

dsheinem wrote:My argument is that the vast majority of violence in God of War, especially against women, isn't just mindless "violence for the sake of violence." It is violence that is character driven, story driven, genre driven, etc. You are essentially arguing that this game is bad becasue it is violent. I am suggesting that is as naive as suggesting that horror films, kung-fu films, etc. are somehow inherently bad if they too feature stylized or even sexualized violence against women. It paints the audience as stupid and uncritical in their own processing of the media they consume.

Ok, let's step back. You say that this violence is in context or that it is story/character/genre driven. This is quite general and vague. What is the specific context that you believe justifies the claim that the Sony Dev Team voluntarily removing sexualized violence against women is a bad thing?

The kind of violence that the devs are voluntarily removing:
1. Makes up a small fraction of the overall violence in the series
2. In both God of War and videogames in general, sexualized violence is perpetrated disproportionately on female characters
3. Is the type of violence most likely to make female players (a potential income source) feel uncomfortable or unwelcome
4. Has the effect of increasing the male audience's perception that real life violence against women is less serious.

My argument is that removing this type of violence is a good thing, not that the game is bad because it is violent. Also, this isn't about treating the audience as stupid or uncritical, it's about treating the audience as scientific inquiry says that they actually act.