Together Retro: Sonic & Knuckles

[MrPopo]

I don't understand how anyone gets lost in S&K. About the only one I can think of is if you don't realize the sand slide in Sandopolis 2 is infinite if you don't jump to the other one. I always found the stages to be very straightforward to get to; the difficulty was in avoiding the hazards.

[ZeroAX]

So....the biggest S&K fan on the forum is missing his Mega Drive's video cable

Is the PS3 Ultimate Mega Drive Collection good? No it's not, because I love me some original Mega Drive gamepad action. Going to order one from ebay, hope it arrives before the end of the month.



On the topic of the discussion: I am always with Xeogred on this one. I just loved this game so much, and find Sonic 3 the weakest of the original 4 games (not including Sonic CD).

I can understand why someone would prefer Sonic 2, but I just prefer this one. I respect someone not liking it. I can't for the life of me fathom how anyone gets lost in these stages, expect if you were talking about Sonic 3 where 3 zones in a row (from hydrocity to carnival night) are annoying as fuck, and they are the reason I avoid the game.

And I'm surprised how long to beat has it clocked in at 3 hours....are you guys sure that's not the full Sonic3&K? Because I can beat S&K in a bit less than an hour if I'm focused.

[CFFJR]

Well my day off was shot, but I still sat down and beat the game twice this evening. All emeralds both times, though in Sonic's case it took me a few levels to collect them all because I forgot the Mushroom Hill route. When I went through again with Knuckles, I had them all by Flying Battery.

I actually played through Sonic 3 the other day, so now I might do a quick run through the combined games with Tails.

I have to say I also don't understand getting lost in these games. The levels are large (as they should be) and have multiple routes (Sonic game? It better have multiple routes, that's how its done) but they all funnel you to the same place in the end. There is no "wrong" way. Some are just faster than others. The only level in the series that I'd consider maze like is CD's Metallic Madness (act 2 I think, can't remember for sure) where you can get stuck in a loop if you don't find the path.

I also don't get any preference for Sonic 2 (Not picking on anyone here, its a common statement). If you ask me, its the odd one out of the original games, and its the only one that I don't often play anymore because it kinda bores me compared to the rest.

All of the other games, Sonic 1, CD, 3, & K, have large, vertical levels with multiple tiers and obstacles that must be overcome so as to achieve and maintain momentum. Exploration, and learning the best routes, is key, especially when you consider that Tails and Knuckles both have access to areas that the others do not. These games are not, contrary to popular belief, all about speed.

The only game that really goes against this pattern is Sonic 2, which is somewhat simplified (and thus "faster") compared to the rest. Emerald Hill Zone Act 1 is, as far as I know, the only level in the series where you really can simply hold right and beat the level (Yes I've done this before).

Even then, there are multiple times over the course of the game where it slows you down. Metropolis Zone all by itself is filled to the brim with traps that bring you to a halt.

It honestly breaks my heart when I hear folks don't like Sonic 3 & Knuckles, but I guess you can't win 'em all.

And I'm surprised how long to beat has it clocked in at 3 hours....are you guys sure that's not the full Sonic3&K? Because I can beat S&K in a bit less than an hour if I'm focused.

Even if it is the full S3&K, I feel like 3 hours is running high. I think 2, maybe 2 1/2 hours should be enough for a first time run, if the player isn't going for the emeralds.

[alienjesus]

I can't understand how people are put off to games like this and Donkey Kong Country 2, and prefer games like Sonic 1 & 2. I'd argue those previous games in the series feel "empty" (and more straightforward) in comparison to all the features packed into Sonic 3 & Knuckles. Maybe it's too complex for people?

Also, Mushroom Hill is kind of a frustrating stage to start right off the bat with in regards to the rooster enemies blowing the wind in your face and whatnot. Makes more sense starting off with Angel Island Zone from Sonic 3 locked on to S&K and working your way up, IMO.

I think that Sonic 1 & 2 are far superior to 3 & Knuckles myself. I think Sonic & Knuckles is the better half of that duo for sure though - the stages in 3 are far more frustrating.

I'm also not sure I like DKC2 more than DKC1, but I can guarantee it's nothing to do with being 'more complex' and DKC3 is actually my favourite in the series.

I agree that the sonic 3 stages seem more maze like (not too much mind, but definitely notable compared to Sonic 2). It's not that I get lost, it just feels like they wind round and round for far too long.

I'm also frustrated by constant traps - of all the Sonic games, I feel like Sonic 3 punishes you the most for going fast without having 100% memorised the level first - surprise spikes, endless amounts of backwards pointing springs (Oh, how I hate those springs) and frustrating stage gimmicks. I don't hate the game, but it feels like a step down to me.

Also, Sonic's new sprite looks uglier than the one in Sonic 1 and Sonic 2. How do they screw that up?


Here's my thoughts on the stages in Sonic 3 & Knuckles:

Angel Island - Boring and drab, bad music, bad stage design.
Hydrocity - Maybe my least favourite water zone, fuck those pirahna badniks who latch on to you
Marble Garden - One of my least favourite zones in the entire series. I hate everything here - the springy spike enemies, the backward springs, the atrocious hover platforms. Urgh.
Carnival Night - My absolute least favourite classic Sonic zone! So long, so tedious, so slow.
Ice Cap - Finally - This zone is great. It's fast, it has cool music, it's fun.
Launch Base - Eh, this ones alright.
Mushroom Hill - I quite like this one. There are a few frustrations, but it's enjoyable overall.
Flying Battery - I love this zone. A ton of fun, awesome music, lightning shields everywhere. Best zone in the game.
Sandopolis - My second least favourite zone in the classic games - long and tedious, especially part 2.
Lava Reef - This one's not too bad. The gas cloud badniks are irritating though.
Hidden Palace - lol
Sky Sanctuary - This seems to be a fan favourite? I thought it was kinda dull. I especially don't like the music.

Never played the whole game put together, so that's as far as I got.

[ZeroAX]

Lava Reef and Flying Battery Zone are actually my facorite zones in the entire series .

Also love this fan remix with lyrics no matter how corny it is:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K585K6ru4WE

of course it helps that the original track is so good to begin with

[SpaceBooger]

To prepare for this I played the easy mode on Sonic 3 Complete, for Sonic 3, to understand the story and difference in mechanics. The easy mode is similar to Sonic Jam where most zones are only one act with a boss. Maybe easy mode would be better for those not digging the game since it cut down on many of the levels that annoy people.

[BoneSnapDeez]

"Getting lost to me" was more synonymous with "getting bogged down by boredom and tedium." Feels like I have to trudge through these levels. Not fun.

And I'm surprised how long to beat has it clocked in at 3 hours....are you guys sure that's not the full Sonic3&K? Because I can beat S&K in a bit less than an hour if I'm focused.

Right. And this is your favorite game of all time? One you've played dozens of times?

Look at our Lost Vikings thread from the other year. I was able to roll through two different ports in about five days, while it took many others the whole dang month of off and on play to finish the game. That's because I love the game and have played it to the point of memorization. I would venture a guess that your S&K experience is similar.

Anyway, I'm not much interested in posting much more in this thread. I don't want to clog the place with my negativity. To those who enjoy the game - have at it! I'll be over in Secret of Mana land.

[Gunstar Green]

I think my issue is that Sonic 3/Knuckles stages feel more like mazes than linear platformer stages. Just is not fun to me. I get lost and annoyed instead of progressing.

This is where I'm at.

It's like the game is stuck between genres. It's not a smooth fluid platformer like Super Mario World. Nor is it a full-blown puzzle-platformer like The Lost Vikings. It's like those two games were thrown in a blender and this was the disastrous result.

Or it's like Sega took the level design of a good Sonic game (like Sonic 2) and said "Hey let's clutter up all our levels with stupid arbitrary obstacles and bullshit."

For what it's worth I feel exactly the same about Sonic 3. And Ristar for that matter.

I feel that way about Donkey Kong Country even though fundamentally they're very similar games.

No way!

Those games are "alike" only because they belong to the same genre. The pacing, level design, challenge, and controls are worlds apart. One flows like a stream, the other feels like a traffic jam.

What you guys are describing is what Sonic CD is for me. That one has really cluttered level design that punishes you for trying to play it like a Sonic game.

There's some exploration elements if you're hunting down all the special stages but if you just try to blast through the game it plays exactly as fluid and straightforward as previous Sonic titles.

I would suggest maybe playing through the game as Tails who is basically the game's easy mode. I've discovered people in the past who found his play-style more appealing than Sonic or Knuckles.

Didn't mean to be a Debbie Downer btw. I appreciate how much the rest of y'all enjoy this.

Well this is what I like about together retro. It takes people out of their comfort zones or gets them to give something a second look. It doesn't always have to be a happy ending. Either way we get to have a discussion about it.

I think that Sonic 1 & 2 are far superior to 3 & Knuckles myself. I think Sonic & Knuckles is the better half of that duo for sure though - the stages in 3 are far more frustrating.

People keep saying this but my main beef by Sonic 3 by itself is that it's absurdly easy. But as I said I've lost my objectivity towards this game long ago and playing it is second nature.

I'm with the opinion that Sandopolis is one of the most annoying stages if only because it's slowed down by things like the bungee cords and the ghosts in act 2, but I give them credit for trying something different in a stage and the ghosts scared me as a kid.

Anyway, my stage breakdown:

Angel Island - Admittedly the worst starter stage in the series. It was interesting to see the forest get burnt down though, playing well into the environmentalist themes of the early series.

Hydrocity - I feel like this is the best water zone in the series. Much less aggravating and far nicer to look at than previous attempts. Neat stage gimmicks as well.

Marble Garden - Not a fan of the tops you have to ride on but I really enjoy the steep, sheer hills and the color palette. Very fun final boss fight with a Tails assist.

Carnival Night - Everyone hates this zone. It's not my favorite either but I never got stuck on the barrels so I never developed much rage towards it.

Ice Cap - Best Zone in the Sonic 3 half. It's fast, it's pretty, it has a rockin' soundtrack.

Mushroom Hill - A much better starter zone than Angel Island and it works as a half way point as well. One of the most graphically impressive zones in the game. Not just fun to blitz through but also fun to explore and mess around in.

Flying Battery - The best mechanical-themed zone and in my opinion the quintessential "battleship" level of any Sonic game.

Sandopolis - After several very fast and energetic zones Sandopolis is kind of a shock to the system. I appreciate they were trying to break things up but that attempt has given the zone a bad reputation.

Lava Reef - Comes close to Mushroom Hill in the competition for prettiest. I usually hate lava levels in games but this is lava done right. Not the fastest zone either, but lots of interesting gimmicks and excellent platforming bits that aren't as annoying as Sandopolis.

Hidden Palace - It's story time! It's not much of a zone but it's an integral part of the experience. It doesn't seem like much now but those unexpected scripted sequences had a big impact back in the day.

Sky Sanctuary - Suddenly back in the bright sun with uplifting music, a great breather before you head into the darker and grittier ending.

Death Egg - Most Sonic games have a really annoying final Zone, and Death Egg has a few of those moments but for the most part it's fast and frantic with driving music. It has one of the best "final level" feels of any Sonic game. The boss fight is one of the most menacing in the series.

Doomsday Zone - The final boss, while the fight itself isn't spectacular it's an epic conclusion to the 16-bit Sonic series.


Looking at the levels I have to say one thing that always impressed me about the Sonic games is variety. Yes they could have made the games bigger if they had re-used assets but every Zone is unique with its design, enemies and gimmicks.

[ExedExes]

Turns out I have the PC version of Sonic & Knuckles, it's on the Sonic & Knuckles collection which was included in the Sega Mega Pack from 2003. It has a whole mess of other games too, but they never worked well in XP, more like Win 95/98 only. I can only imagine the mess it would take to get it working in 8. (this collection also had the infamous PC version of Sonic CD which required a special patch to work correctly in later versions of Windows)

[CFFJR]

Gunstar - No comment on Launch Base?

Turns out I have the PC version of Sonic & Knuckles, it's on the Sonic & Knuckles collection which was included in the Sega Mega Pack from 2003.)

As I recall that version has some different music in certain zones, most notably (and disappointingly) in the Ice Cap Zone.