Resident Evil Revelations 2 Leaked

[Tanooki]

Ack: I recall when RE came out I'm aware of what the limitations were and that's why I was totally fine with it on RE2 and put up with it in Codename Veronica as well on Dreamcast. I just believe that feel was kept around long after their prime as a cheap scare value tactic limiting the player in a bad way to respond to the environment is all. I don't agree with your break down on Dead Space at all. No game has ever 'scared' me but that one was the only one to ever make me feel progressively more uneasy as I went along due to the degradation of the environment and the smart use of sound, light and shadow and to me that's how a game should be worked to scare one in survival horror and not being scared due to poor design limitations.

I don't feel you're knocking me or dead space in the least bit, no worries, as I get what you're saying. I do like your ending bit though, it's fair to say Dead Space remade survival horror breaking down the barrier of tank control and wonky angles in confined spaces and replaced them with different forms of confinement, dark spaces, but using Uncharted like control and camera to foster a more accessible kind of scares. I just feel it didn't water the experience down but enhanced it more (when done right) because your scares are now based on the whole environment, not the limits caused by hardware or choice.

[Ack]

See, that's just it, I don't consider tank controls and camera angles to be a sign of outdated tech or poor design used in a cheap way, I see it as an effective use of the framework of a video game to instill dread. I like when a game's mechanics are used as a tool for ratcheting up tension and think it's a creative method for playing with the medium. Of all the best scares in survival horror, Eternal Darkness' message that it is reformatting the memory card stands out to me as the most effective, because it attacks the player directly as opposed to the avatar. This is also why I think the indie horror game Imscared is one of the best horror games I've seen recently, because it played upon the mechanics and the idea of a video game in creative and disturbing ways.

I think the difference between us comes from this different view on how mechanics should be used versus atmosphere, and I've got to say, I'm enjoying this because it's making me think back on what horror games were effective in my opinion and which weren't and why. Blue Stinger, for instance: mechanically it's competent, but its atmosphere is what makes it creepy, with blood and gore splattered across Christmas decorations during what should be a joyous occasion. Or D, which has an imposed time limit and random elements which can slightly alter the story. How do these compare against, say, Condemned, which used the first person perspective but also copious amounts of shadow and darkness to make a more chilling experience.

[Opa Opa]

See, that's just it, I don't consider tank controls and camera angles to be a sign of outdated tech or poor design used in a cheap way, I see it as an effective use of the framework of a video game to instill dread.

I completely disagree. If it takes poor controls and questionable camera angles to frighten the player, then the game probably isn't all that creepy to begin with.

[graffix_13]

See, that's just it, I don't consider tank controls and camera angles to be a sign of outdated tech or poor design used in a cheap way, I see it as an effective use of the framework of a video game to instill dread. I like when a game's mechanics are used as a tool for ratcheting up tension and think it's a creative method for playing with the medium.

This is well stated and I agree. I finally finished RE4 this year, after many attempts at playing it in the past. My hold up before was basically the controls. They felt...limited. Only after giving it yet another shot this year, something finally clicked for me. The 'stiff' controls (for lack of a better term) actually ADDED to the experience and helped with my overall immersion of the game. When before I hated the controls, I now fell in love with them (mastering the quick turnaround was vital for me) and with the game.

With that being said, I played REmake a month ago and the controls didn't click for me. But was this more due to limitations at the time of the development of the game OR, like RE4, were they intended? I don't know. I do know that a lot of gamers consider REmake to be the best RE.

EDIT: I realized I'm stating why I thought RE4 is the better game, not necessarily the better "survival horror" game. In that case, I'd give the edge to REmake. But I think control play a big part in that (i.e. the interaction).

[Ack]

See, that's just it, I don't consider tank controls and camera angles to be a sign of outdated tech or poor design used in a cheap way, I see it as an effective use of the framework of a video game to instill dread.

I completely disagree.

This is well stated and I agree.

Now we're getting into some interesting territory, as those of us who enjoy horror games begin to consider how mechanics should or should not be involved as part of the experience:

If the mechanics are overly frustrating intentionally as a tool to assault the player, then some players will find the game unplayable and may view its reliance on these mechanics as the sign of a weaker overall package.

But if the mechanics are standardized and easy to use, even with great atmosphere, some players will find the game too easy to manipulate, thus detracting from the experience.

So now I wonder if this also plays into our general view about video games and how they can be manipulated to influence the player, either through the story and atmosphere or through the gameplay itself, or even potentially beyond that, such as Hideo Kojima's usage of packaging. And is there a happy medium between the two?

I consider Resident Evil 2, Silent Hill 2, and Fatal Frame to be the kings of the genre: they have disturbing atmosphere, make effective use of sound, light, and camera angles, offer problematic combat via unskilled or inexperienced avatars, have difficult control mechanics and item shortages to help emphasize the weakness of the characters, and cover an array of frightening territory that include assaults on the body, the mind, and the soul respectively, along with stories of corporate abuse and corruption, the destruction of the family, forbidden love, and the rigid practice but necessity of bloody tradition and values. But any particular aspect of this could be a detraction in the eyes of another player. So what games do you think should be heralded and lauded as the pinnacle of horror video games and why?

[Xeogred]

About the controls, I don't quite agree nor disagree with Ack on this one.

The simple fact of the matter is, for whatever reason, maybe because it immerses me more into "game mode" (whatever that means), I just simply love tank controls. Tight stiffness, that heaviness, etc. In another way you could almost argue such controls often give you even more precision actually, since you're more limited with your aiming and such.

I can't explain this at all, but when I replayed RE4/RE5 last year I got some shmup vibes haha. Or it kind of felt similar to an arcade like experience. I have no idea. But when I played RE6 and RER afterwards? I didn't really care for the controls or the "feel" of the game.

I actually hate when games are overly sensitive and fluid. RER felt a bit like that and RE6 was a bit cumbersome with how much you could do with the controls. But Uncharted really takes the cake for me. I dislike how a simple touch of the joysticks sends you flying a few feet sometimes, or how slippery Drake is in and out of cover and the aiming just never felt that great to me (yet I'm one that always maxes out sensitivity aiming in a lot of console games). There was just something about how overly fluid it felt.

I'm a huge Dead Space fan and I probably wouldn't feel the same it if weren't for the controls. It took the RE4/RE5 blueprint and evolved it a bit with being able to walk/shoot at the same time. But outside of that and a few things they added in 3, there is still this sense of extreme heaviness to the character. Slow and chunky, just the way I love it.

MGS has always been one that strikes a nice balance for me. There's usually a lot you can do with the controls, but they also feel very tightened and refined. MGS4 is a perfect example. I love how that game controlled.

Who knows. Even to this day when I go back and play RE clones that are new to me, I always feel at home with those kind of controls and it's never been an issue to me. I'm sad static camera angles will probably never be a thing again.

[graffix_13]

So what games do you think should be heralded and lauded as the pinnacle of horror video games and why?

For me, Dead Space is the best. A few posts back you dissected Dead Space pretty good and a lot of those are the reasons why it's my favorite of the genre. The overall atmosphere and isolation of the game (in space) just slam dunks it for me.

Did you ever play Outlast? That is probably the most literal 'survival horror' game that I've played. No weapons, you just have to hide from the bad guy. A few scary moments I guess, but overall I was hoping for more. Although I think they (Red Barrels) had the right formula, it was the execution which didn't click for me. But that's just me. Some people loved it.

I never played the Silent Hill or Fatal Frame games. I probably need to get on that. I like the genre, I just don't have a lot of examples to pull from.

Going back to the controls of the RE games (well, 1-4) I chalk that up to the genius that is Mikami. That is why I have HIGH hopes for The Evil Within coming out this October.

[Xeogred]

Now we're opening a can of worms... although I'm a huge fan, I never look at Dead Space as survival horror. Same with Doom 3 or anything else similar to these two. But is RE4? Don't think I'd call it one either.

I guess my labeling of the genre is more synonymous with the controls, camera angles, and true puzzle solving. They're a bit more of an adventure/mystery. That said...

I never played the Silent Hill or Fatal Frame games. I probably need to get on that. I like the genre, I just don't have a lot of examples to pull from.

Going back to the controls of the RE games (well, 1-4) I chalk that up to the genius that is Mikami. That is why I have HIGH hopes for The Evil Within coming out this October.

RE is Mario Brothers compared to Silent Hill or Fatal Frame. I'm having a blast revisiting Fatal Frame again after all these years, and finally dove into SH1-4 last year and it was an incredible experience. The RE's might be more arguably fun game wise, but scare/psychological factor... they don't even compare to Silent Hill, or Fatal Frame as well in my opinion.

If you haven't played these two series... you haven't even found the gold in this genre yet then.

If you're a fan of RE1-3 and can still go back to them, I'd say SH1 has aged pretty damn well. A year later after playing through it and it's still left a crazy mark. I'd say the map system in SH is better than RE's.

[Tanooki]

Ack: We differ on delivery entirely. I felt that kind of control and camera to be bad as soon as something 'dark' came that used a dual analog controller it became all the more clear. A great example to me is how it ruined Devil May Cry from being enjoyable at all and I know a lot of people love that series. It drove me up the wall on that one with the ever changing locked camera angles on that which would vastly reposition by screen to where if you're walking across a ledge suddenly right which makes you go right will then switch to up and left to continue the same direction when the camera pivots. THere is a spot in the game that does that where you're fighting this large thing one on one that can chop some health off and it was jarring being stuck having a push-shove match to where it kept popping the camera and fucking with the controls. At that point I wrote off both that entirely and RE I tried with the remaster as it Cube supposedly improved things and didn't so I quit on it too up until RE4. It's all about mechanics. Pop scares that are overly used (doom 3) and stuck angles and tank controls (RE and the like) I dislike immensely while games like Dead Space and before that Eternal Darkness(a game for years I called 'the game what Resident Evil SHOULD be' to plenty was the right way.

Like Opa Opa said, if a game is living off poor angles and control to be scary, they're not doing it right with the creepy factor. I fall into that camp you said find games with bad angles, locked cameras, and tank controls to be borderline unplayable because they suck the enjoyment out of it and don't make it scary at all, just infuriating to deal with for the sake of the game. There's nothing wrong with standardized controls, Dead Space and Eternal Darkness did this and it was able to use story, atmosphere, and other solid mechanics to create an uneasy environment. It's like going to a horror movie, you have the staples with the give away with weird camera angles and ramping up music to know someones ass is seconds from death, or you have the newer horror where someone just eats it like the original Final Destination did where you didn't see that bus going to cream someone as there was no tell. The games you said I agree are king of the aging style of horror genre, it's also why all those franchises in time have upgraded towards newer methods as they're played out. You see a lot of people enjoying them, then you see the older fans locked into the past getting pissed to hell the old crust of design was scraped away bringing the up to date and they hate or tolerate it.

I couldn't really say what the pinnacle was that's for certain, but I think the bits I put along with you about Eternal Darkness and Dead Space make a good case without writing a book. I think another would be that early isometric/polygonal moving object PC based Alone in the Dark from the DOS era did it nice, the controls/camera weren't so wooden on there even being older the RE but i could be wrong as I've not touched it in 20 years. I think Dead Space hit the nose as did ED equally if not just behind it, shame the sequels to DS weren't anything all that great. I know so little of Fatal Frame I can't rate it, but it may be fair game as the little I touched the original, it didn't feel stiff, just stuck using the camera a lot since it was the key mechanic but it did screw with you pretty well.

[Xeogred]

So you even felt this way when you played those games originally when static camera angles and such were the norm? Though not always the case, there were always exceptions. But I guess as you say, even back then this stuff just wasn't for you I guess. lol

Understandable. What I never really get is people who grow up with this kind of stuff and "can't go back to it". I've always felt like controls complaints are about as lazy as it gets (ohshii but what did I say about Uncharted above haha). But yeah, give me a few minutes and I usually adjust to anything.

Fatal Frame controls well, I can't speak for 3 but having seen videos of it, they all still have that tank feel and static camera angles. The combat is nothing to really talk about. But really, combat isn't a priority focus in survival horror if you ask me. It's pretty bare bones and minimalistic in Silent Hill 2, but I'd argue that could be the most engrossing and best game in the whole genre regardless. Hence, probably another element that makes me not want to bundle up Dead Space among these games, because 99% of the game is blowing up monsters.