☠ Souls Series Symposium ☠

[marlowe221]

I can understand that. I was stuck for I think three days on O&S my first time through the game, and even playing it the other week on NG+ I ended up stuck on them for an hour. They're a wall for a lot of players. For me, a lot of it came down to actually needing to learn to shift between locked on and not, and a decent bit of the fight is a matter of using the environment to manage them and get space to attack.

You can also summon Solaire, which should make the fight a lot easier.

Unfortunately I have no humanity...

I have read that the key to O&S is keeping them separated but in my 30+ attempts, they stay on each other like stink on cheese.

Is my weapon sufficient to beat them?

I don't remember my SL (at work at the moment) but I know I am a mostly-strength build. I do tend to run with very light armor so I can get the hell out of the way of boss attacks.

Which bonfire were you running back from? Takes maybe a minute or two to run to O&S, and unless you're summoning nothing really needs to get killed. Can see here from about 3:00 - you can just book it past everything, but the couple silver knights he kills are quick enough.

If you do want to summon Solaire, clearing out the hall is somewhat necessary so that he doesn't rush off to fight stuff.

Well, it wasn't that bonfire! I have unlocked the one in the video, of course, but I didn't know I could get to the boss room from that fire. I have been running from the one across the bridge and up the revolving circle-elevator thingy.

Don't disagree. There is a cheese for Capra Demon wherein you can just toss firebombs over the wall though. I think more of the challenge for that is getting rushed as you enter, and ganked by dogs

That fight was amazingly frustrating for reasons that seemed to have little to do with "Dark Souls is hard, man" stuff.

The thing that gets me is that I will read stuff like, "Boss XYZ is weak to lightning so be sure and use blah, blah, blah." How the hell was I supposed to have figured that out? Just brute force, trial and error?

DS1 is generally regarded pretty highly - at least, the first half. I would note that it seems like a lot of folks streaming speed or other challenge runs name Bloodborne as their favorite though.

DS2 adds a lot, and certainly doesn't improve much on the jankiness. However, as noted, by default you can effectively clear an area, leaving you an empty run to a boss. You can warp between bonfires from the start, and every bonfire at that. DS1 doesn't give you the ability to do that until after O&S, and even then, only to select locations. So, if you found backtracking tedious in that, then the later games will probably be more appealing.

Upgrade systems are also simplified - DeS is by far the most esoteric, and DS1 retains some of that. The others get more and more straightforward. Plus, DS2 and 3 let you respec if you really feel like your setup just doesn't work for you (or want to try something else).

I'd also say that enlisting NPC help in DS2 and 3 is easier. More of them see to be a given that they'll be available, and right outside the boss door. Plus you can use an effigy/ember anywhere. DS1 I think you have more prerequisites for NPCs to be there, and DeS of course doesn't have consistent NPCs available and items to turn human are relatively scarce anyway.

DS3 is the only one I can't think of a particularly egregious run back to a boss in, but IMO the DS2 DLC has some of the worst.

Overall, I do think that the later ones are better balanced games, but that's part of what makes DS1 a bit fun - there are things that are broken levels of good for the player that would end up tweaked in a patch in DS2/3.

Bloodborne is a generally simpler game though, if faster, and retains a lot of the stronger design elements of the series. Oddly few of the bosses are actually required too. It's easily worth giving a shot even if you've written off the Souls games.

That's interesting and good to know. I own DS2 on Steam but have never even booted up the game because I got stonewalled on DS1. And I never bought DS3...

But I agree that the first half of DS1 is brilliant. They should have rolled the credits at that point and quit while they were ahead.

[MrPopo]

Unfortunately I have no humanity...

You can farm it pretty easily off the rats in the sewers in the Undead Burg. They have a pretty high drop rate for it.

[isiolia]

Unfortunately I have no humanity...

Ah. There are some decent spots to farm it...but nothing readily accessible for you short of backtracking to the Depths to kill rats.

I have read that the key to O&S is keeping them separated but in my 30+ attempts, they stay on each other like stink on cheese.

Is my weapon sufficient to beat them?

I don't remember my SL (at work at the moment) but I know I am a mostly-strength build. I do tend to run with very light armor so I can get the hell out of the way of boss attacks.

Your weapon is fine. It doesn't have the reach of some, but the damage is as good as you can generally expect at that point in the game. Standard weapons do go to +15, but you can't yet get the coal to allow for that (or, if you can, it'd be a pain to). So, short of using some infusion, that'd be it.

I think the overall approach is to try and separate them, but predominately to create an attack opportunity. Attacking when both are on top of you is a good recipe for getting smacked. However, that's also what tends to happen if you don't keep track of both of them, as both have dashes that'll cross the arena. The key factor is to use the environment. The pillars tend to do a good job of stopping both, so you can use them for cover. What you can also tend to do is get Smough (particularly) to path into them, keeping him farther out when Orstein glides in (or vice versa).

I seem to end up moving backwards in a general loop around the room, weaving between pillars sometimes. A decent shield can help as well, if you have a higher stability one.

Well, it wasn't that bonfire! I have unlocked the one in the video, of course, but I didn't know I could get to the boss room from that fire. I have been running from the one across the bridge and up the revolving circle-elevator thingy.

The door between the two silver knights he kills can only be opened from inside that room - it's a shortcut to open up. You can also get to that floor by running partway up the stairs and jumping over the railing, but it can be a little tricky to pull off, so I would still just go open the door.

The thing that gets me is that I will read stuff like, "Boss XYZ is weak to lightning so be sure and use blah, blah, blah." How the hell was I supposed to have figured that out? Just brute force, trial and error?

Well, you'd probably end up noticing it if it was extreme...but I think it's somewhat meant as balance. Different builds will tend to wind up with easier and harder fights. Relevant to magic or buffs more than anything.

Speaking of, that's also another thing that can make DS2/3/Bloodborne nicer. Stuff like resins to apply elemental damage to weapons tend to be more readily available and/or the NPCs to buy supplies get more consolidated. DS1 kinda spreads things out all over (and limits supply of some), which is particularly inconvenient when you can't warp around.

[Sload Soap]

Have you pushed Agility high enough for iframes/etc?

Oh man, I don't know what's more annoying. The confusing agility stat in Dark Souls 2, or the changes to poise in Dark Souls 3.

Agility in DS2, easily.

[marlowe221]

Ah. There are some decent spots to farm it...but nothing readily accessible for you short of backtracking to the Depths to kill rats.

That's so far away! I think I'm going to have to solo them if I'm going to beat them.

Your weapon is fine. It doesn't have the reach of some, but the damage is as good as you can generally expect at that point in the game. Standard weapons do go to +15, but you can't yet get the coal to allow for that (or, if you can, it'd be a pain to). So, short of using some infusion, that'd be it.

I think the overall approach is to try and separate them, but predominately to create an attack opportunity. Attacking when both are on top of you is a good recipe for getting smacked. However, that's also what tends to happen if you don't keep track of both of them, as both have dashes that'll cross the arena. The key factor is to use the environment. The pillars tend to do a good job of stopping both, so you can use them for cover. What you can also tend to do is get Smough (particularly) to path into them, keeping him farther out when Orstein glides in (or vice versa).

I seem to end up moving backwards in a general loop around the room, weaving between pillars sometimes. A decent shield can help as well, if you have a higher stability one.

I do have a few good shields. I'll have to check their stability though - I never knew what that stat did actually.

The door between the two silver knights he kills can only be opened from inside that room - it's a shortcut to open up. You can also get to that floor by running partway up the stairs and jumping over the railing, but it can be a little tricky to pull off, so I would still just go open the door.

I should have that door unlocked. I was all over that place with the spiral staircase. That's where I finally learned how to parry effectively.

[isiolia]

Stability is what determines how much stamina is used when blocking hits. Generally speaking, it's a notable advantage for Greatshields, though most of those are quite heavy (the exception in DS1 is the Eagle Shield). You also can't parry with them. Still, you can go from seeing your stamina wiped out from a hit or two from a boss to being able to withstand combos and still have enough left to attack back.

Personally, I tend to like using them on some fights, even if it means wearing light or no armor to offset the weight.

[marlowe221]

Stability is what determines how much stamina is used when blocking hits. Generally speaking, it's a notable advantage for Greatshields, though most of those are quite heavy (the exception in DS1 is the Eagle Shield). You also can't parry with them. Still, you can go from seeing your stamina wiped out from a hit or two from a boss to being able to withstand combos and still have enough left to attack back.

Personally, I tend to like using them on some fights, even if it means wearing light or no armor to offset the weight.

Is this a fight where you would do that?

I don't remember what my strength stat is off the top of my head but it's pretty high.

[isiolia]

It's not one where I think it's super necessary (though I think I did use Artorias's Shield in NG+1), but if you happened to have picked up the Eagle Shield on your way through Blighttown it might be something to try. That one doesn't block 100% of damage, but the chip damage is manageable.
Chances are you found Havel's too (it's right near that bonfire), but it requires 50 STR to equip properly, nevermind the weight (tied to Endurance in DS1). So it's unlikely you can really use it yet.

Offhand, most of the DLC bosses (and the end boss) are ones that being able to use Artorias's or Havel's is game changing with regard to strategy. There are a few in DS2 and DS3 that are similar.

[marlowe221]

It's not one where I think it's super necessary (though I think I did use Artorias's Shield in NG+1), but if you happened to have picked up the Eagle Shield on your way through Blighttown it might be something to try. That one doesn't block 100% of damage, but the chip damage is manageable.
Chances are you found Havel's too (it's right near that bonfire), but it requires 50 STR to equip properly, nevermind the weight (tied to Endurance in DS1). So it's unlikely you can really use it yet.

Offhand, most of the DLC bosses (and the end boss) are ones that being able to use Artorias's or Havel's is game changing with regard to strategy. There are a few in DS2 and DS3 that are similar.

I'll have to check and see what shields I have and what my stats are this evening.

My build is probably a little wonky because I had no idea what I was doing. I started as a Wanderer and have mainly put souls into Strenght, Dex, Endurance, and Vitality. But mostly Strength. I've been running with a Longsword and shield the whole game. I use no magic of any kind.

I would probably be best served by starting over but... fuck that.

[marlowe221]

Well... I just tried that fight about 10 more times.

I'm not even making any progress against them at all. I seem to be able to do more damage against Smough for whatever reason. Ornstein I can barely scratch.

Half the time I'm getting killed before I can even do any damage against either of them.

Maybe this series just isn't for me...