World is Falling Apart Thread (Locked forever)

[ZeroAX]

I'm reading through this, or at least what the US and UK media is reporting on the bailout. I'm not entirely sure I follow what is considered good/bad about this.

Greece stays in the European Union and continues to use the Euro, I get that. But what is happening to the pension fund? I know austerity is continuing, but I've alternately read that pensions will continue to be cut versus the pension fund being "streamlined." Higher taxes, sure, but has anyone given specifics on how those taxes will be distributed? Also, government assets must be sold off and certain services must be privatized, but to what extent? And what does "extend shop opening hours" mean?

This is what the BBC is reporting:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33504487

I don't mind the market reforms. They are badly needed. ANd the extend shop opening hours is about allowing non mini market shops and tourist shops to open on Sundays, which is super good.

The problem is that the debt is simply UNBEARABLE. I am the FIRST to blame our governments for their missmanagement. But the way European politicians acted yesterday was truly like we just capitulated and they had the right to do whatever they wanted to us. Like you're being raped and told not to struggle or they will hurt you more.

Where is the light at the end of the tunnel? More debt? More of the same failed policies? And the thing is as I didn't trust our politicians to enact reforms, I DON'T trust the Germans and etc. to not demand MORE cuts if the numbers don't work out, which they won't because this will just cause another economic downturn.

And about the 50 billion € privatization fund: they wanted us to give away 50 billion worth of assets to the EU for them to sell it for us. So basically to give away any facade of fiscal independence. And again my major problem with this is: where's the end? Last time they tried to privatize things they realized that their value had greatly depreceated BECAUSE of the crisis. We give away an island to be sold for 5 million only to be told it only sold for 1 so we should give away more?

I'm very distressed right now. I grew up believe in the European dream and the EU but this morning I woke up to realize that it's been overtaken by a bunch of useless career politicians who don't give a fuck for my people (fair enough, that not even our own politicians give a fuck about the Greek people imo), the European dream, and imo the future of Europe as a whole (because I just think things will get worse for all of us).

[Ack]

You know, I always thought the European Union would end one of two ways: either total collapse, or total control, with nations becoming the equivalent of states similar to the US or Canadian provinces. Europe has shown time and again that it really wants to conquer itself. Ultimately the goal is likely for every European nation to give up its independence as a nation to be put under one continental European government, which might be dominated by any of the various groups which have attempted to control it in the past.

Which do you prefer? The anarchy of nations vying with each other, or the peaceful loss of identity as every nation ends up subject to one government that doesn't always have the interests of every individual nation at heart?

[ZeroAX]

I don't care if I'm governed by someone who doesn't speak the same language as me, as long as they care for my well being too. The entire reaction to the crisis points otherwise. And mind you I'm the person who paid 400€ in plane tickets to go vote yes in the referendum because I believed in the EU. I don't know if you realize how much yesterday has shocked me.

[Ack]

I don't know if you realize how much yesterday has shocked me.

As an American, I can easily say, "Nope, sure don't."

I am a little surprised you didn't expect some kind of raw deal from Germany and the Scandinavian countries though.

[RCBH928]

I am not very informed about the situation, but why is everyone hating on the Euro countries because Greece got themselves into trouble?

Europe is one of the best places to live and people from everywhere immigrate there, why the hate?

[ZeroAX]

Well it's their right to give us a raw deal, but after yesterday I'm in the default and leave the euro crowd. Though of course I don't trust my government to handle that, I think even with good politicians they would still give us a raw deal.

So better stop the torture and start anew, since obviously they don't give a fuck about the consequences of more of the same.

[Ack]

Europe is one of the best places to live and people from everywhere immigrate there, why the hate?

Well, that is part of the issue. A lot of people want to immigrate to Europe, so they tend to do it through specific countries. Unfortunately this has been putting a lot of stress on social services, particularly in the medical industry, and has led to part of the backlash we are seeing against immigration today. Heck, even when it isn't that big of a burden, the perception of immigration being a problem can cause issues.

More importantly though, not all European nations are created equally. The EU is dominated by the successful(and generally larger) countries, especially Germany, France, and the Scandinavian countries. The UK could be added to that list, though it fluctuates on just how much it wants to be in the EU. But when you start looking at the Mediterranean nations, the economies weaken, the services offered are less, corruption is more of a problem, etc. Heck, several member states of the Balkans were committing genocide against each other less than 20 years ago.

And even within the EU, different nations still have vastly different conditions. Germany is doing wonderfully, but Greece is suffering from years of mismanagement. And now other nations are all demanding what the Greek government owes them, all at the same time. And the ones who will have to repay are the Greek people and workers, not the politicians and officials who mismanaged the economy to begin with.

On the upside, Greece has probably the most unique experience of the EU, considering its back and forth struggle between East and West politics, its dictatorship, its extremism and government experimentation, and its corruption and mismanagement. It's about as bad as one can get in Europe right now. While there are other European nations struggling, such as Spain, they're not as bad off. But more successful nations don't want to be dragged down by Greece's problems, and they don't want to just give them money because they don't expect Greece to suddenly fix itself overnight and they don't want to throw their money into a bottomless hole. Each nation in the EU is still expected to manage itself successfully and resolve its own issues with corruption and provide for its citizens.

There are also a lot of competing national characters in the EU. German ethics and attitudes are radically different from, say, Portuguese ethics and attitudes, Serbian ethics and attitudes, or English ethics and attitudes. When one of these nations is dominant, it can create quite the culture clash.

Well it's their right to give us a raw deal, but after yesterday I'm in the default and leave the euro crowd. Though of course I don't trust my government to handle that, I think even with good politicians they would still give us a raw deal.

So better stop the torture and start anew, since obviously they don't give a fuck about the consequences of more of the same.

Admittedly though, has Greece really stuck to austerity? It's painful, but it seems like a lot of the political response has been about bucking it, even from the get go. And with the level of extremism that exists in Greece right now, are you not concerned that removal from the Eurozone could lead to civil unrest or perhaps even war?

[o.pwuaioc]

And with the level of extremism that exists in Greece right now, are you not concerned that removal from the Eurozone could lead to civil unrest or perhaps even war?

Civil unrest needs to be defined, and war is a bit extreme, even for Greece right now. A Grexit is the best deal for both Greece and Europe as a whole.

[Ack]

And with the level of extremism that exists in Greece right now, are you not concerned that removal from the Eurozone could lead to civil unrest or perhaps even war?

Civil unrest needs to be defined, and war is a bit extreme, even for Greece right now. A Grexit is the best deal for both Greece and Europe as a whole.

Civil unrest = Mass protest, riots, targeted violence between political groups/communities, conflict between government factions and security forces, etc. Basically things we've already been seeing.

And war may be unlikely but is always possible in any region suffering severe economic or ideological crisis. Whose to say that in the wake of an exit, Syriza and Golden Dawn won't start actively shooting at one another?

[Erik_Twice]

I'm reading through this, or at least what the US and UK media is reporting on the bailout. I'm not entirely sure I follow what is considered good/bad about this.

My take on it is that it does little to promote much-needed growth in Greece, it only prevents them from plunging into an ever deeper abyss. That's nothing to scoff at, but there's nothing in the deal that will help Greece get back on track and it needs that help. The debt is unsumournable and they have already lost a quarter of their GDP during the last decade, not letting them fall is simply not up to solidarity standards.

And it makes nobody happy. National leaders are unhappy, because they have radicalized their speech to the point that any kind of deal is seen as a defeat. Pro-EU groups are unhappy because it's a huge blow to what the Union stands for and if it doesn't destroy it, it will have awful effects for decades. And both the radical left and the xenophonic righty are unhappy because they are blind by rage to see it as anything but as a confirmation of their weird ideas.

Which do you prefer? The anarchy of nations vying with each other, or the peaceful loss of identity as every nation ends up subject to one government that doesn't always have the interests of every individual nation at heart?

I'm of the opinion that any identity that is lost by removing borders between people is not an identity worth keeping. Being able to live together with other Europeans has only made my life richer and my own identity stronger because it's no longer tied to a silly line in the ground.

As an American, I can easily say, "Nope, sure don't."

I think this honours you, Ack, because it's a very difficult subject for Americans to understand. You guys simply have no frame of reference.

Think about the huge psychological and cultural impact the American Civil War has had in the United States, how it has defined the country. It lasted four years. Europe has had a war that lasted one hundred sixteen years and that ended with another one that lasted eighty. We have been murdering, cheating, conspiring and allying against each other for centuries and yet, despite all odds that stopped with the European Union. There hasn't been a war betwen Germany and France for 70 years which must be the longest period in the history we have had peace.

Civil unrest needs to be defined, and war is a bit extreme, even for Greece right now. A Grexit is the best deal for both Greece and Europe as a whole.

A Grexit would instantly destroy the European Union. This almost has.