World is Falling Apart Thread (Locked forever)

[Luke]

So this conversation is still going strong eh?

Well, not being involved in this discussion means I don't have that much room to talk, but! After reading around, I don't know... maybe a dozen or so pages, it feels like everyone has said their piece over and over and over, and over again. Although only at a very few times did any posts seem hostile or evil spirited, and most of the discussion has been open minded...Maybe give it a rest?

Not saying you guys should call it quits, simply stating the obvious that it doesn't look like any of you guys plan on changing your beliefs anytime soon. But carry on if you'd like.

[Erik_Twice]

Ok, I can see that an agenda has formed here and that seeing us as separate entities is not serving that agenda. Since I have been largely ignored except for this one snippet taken out of context, I'll respectfully decline any further involvement with the discussion.

Sorry if I made you feel that way jp1, I actually thought your posts were very thoughtful, certainly better than mine. I simply quoted the part I see as source of the problem, but I read the rest and I thought they were great.

It isn't enough that a person practices in acceptance of your lifestyle? They must also believe what you want them to believe as well?

The problem is that I don't think anyone who thinks that homosexuality is a sin and opposes gay marriage, and gay relationships and so on is actually accepting gay people. It's like saying "Oh, I accept black people, just not their skin colour".


But yeah, Luke is right.

[pepharytheworm]

I will freely admit I am a bigot towards bigots. Oh wait..... wouldn't that make me a bigot towards myself.. oh.. no!

Christians being persecuted on this forum is a joke and that's what really side-stepped this discussion.
Whatever perceived disrespect you feel, your words toward non-heterosexuals is worse, because they live it everyday. You don't like the way it feels in this minor way just imagine how they feel their entire life.

To get back on topic who else would be affected by this other than non-heterosexuals? Because so far that's all it seems like who would be. And in what ways other then providing services for a wedding?

Are you calling me a bigot? If so, congratulations. At least you had the guts to outright do so.

My claim is that some people are arguing in bad faith. I cannot speak to the underlying motive. However, if I am wrong, tell me why. State your position, and let its superiority over my own speak for itself. There is no need to twist my own position to do so.

And with that, I'm not sure it's worth even discussing anything here anymore. If you wonder why people of faith are unwilling to share their views, this is it. It's one thing to disagree, vehemently even, but misrepresentation of those views in the pursuit of validating one's own is intellectually dishonest. It's not worth my time, or anyone else's.

I am not openly calling you a bigot. That was a joking response to this.

Tossing around the term bigot is sad. Speck / Log / Eye and all that. Bigotry toward religion is still bigotry. The irony isn't comical - it's offensive.

And it is not stating I treat religious people with bigotry. Just prejudice behaviors I am against.

[Sarge]

I am not openly calling you a bigot. That was a joking response to this.

Tossing around the term bigot is sad. Speck / Log / Eye and all that. Bigotry toward religion is still bigotry. The irony isn't comical - it's offensive.

And it is not stating I treat religious people with bigotry. Just prejudice behaviors I am against.

Well, that's of some comfort, I think.

I really do suspect Luke is right on this. I can't really express or prove my lack of animus towards homosexual individuals without having a personal friendship with said individual, so no amount of words will convince them of my sincerity. And I suppose I should understand that. Barring that, there's not really any progress being made on either side. We're all rather firmly entrenched in our beliefs, and I can respect that. If one feels that this discussion must continue, that's fine. But I sincerely doubt there's much to be gained at this point.

For those that were honest during this discussion, which may well be all of you, I extend my thanks.

[SpaceBooger]

I like what Luke said.

This law created a ton of debate that then got personal. How about we now move on and discuss the outcomes of it, good or bad, as they happen.

This thread is about the world falling apart, lets not let it cause these forms fall apart too.

[samsonlonghair]

I was watching a video about how angry thoughts. It turns out that angry thoughts have a way of replicating across the internet faster than ever before. These angry thoughts need opposing angry thoughts to thrive in human brains. CGPgrey explains this in a way that sounds way more logical than I'm making it out to be.


Meanwhile, you goof goons are shouting the same angry arguments at each other ad nauseam.

[jp1]

Ok, I can see that an agenda has formed here and that seeing us as separate entities is not serving that agenda. Since I have been largely ignored except for this one snippet taken out of context, I'll respectfully decline any further involvement with the discussion.

Sorry if I made you feel that way jp1, I actually thought your posts were very thoughtful, certainly better than mine. I simply quoted the part I see as source of the problem, but I read the rest and I thought they were great.

It isn't enough that a person practices in acceptance of your lifestyle? They must also believe what you want them to believe as well?

The problem is that I don't think anyone who thinks that homosexuality is a sin and opposes gay marriage, and gay relationships and so on is actually accepting gay people. It's like saying "Oh, I accept black people, just not their skin colour".


But yeah, Luke is right.

Ok, so the thing is I understand your position. I'm not looking to be confrontational, I just didn't like that the statement felt cherry picked in a post that had support for everyone in it.

I know that it sounds strange to say that a person can accept you while they feel that your sexuality is a sin, but it can also be true. I make no judgments on your sexuality so I'm speaking in relativity here, so please excuse that.

I can feel that an alcoholic (another widely accepted genetic trait, which I happen to posses BTW), is sinning by imbibing too much. However, I may still love and accept them as a person. It doesn't have to be black and white. Sarge may feel that homosexuality is a sin, he may also feel that you are equally deserving of grace...in this instance would he really be judging you? Not every christian believes you are doomed to hell for being homosexual (assuming you are). That is all I am trying to say, there are many of us who try our best to love everyone and whether or not the bible says a thing is a sin is not something that we work into our equation of acceptance or love of other people. I would just as happily share a meal, a conversation, a friendship, or anything else with you as I would with a devout christian...and in some instances even more happily. Yet, I am a religious person.

To me the bible has many teachings and the most important teachings are those of love and acceptance. I won't point my finger at you and say you are a sinner, and I won't point it and claim you are a saint. I will approach you as an equal with love in my heart and try my best to relate to you on a human level, no matter our differences. I'm sorry if that isn't your experience with others, sincerely. I can only imagine how deeply personal something as intrinsic as sexuality must be and how having aspersions cast towards it must feel. I simply want you to know that not every religious person feels that way.

If any hostility was read into my comment it was simply frustration for trying to have that sentiment conveyed and a constant stream of negativity flowing against it. It wasn't meant to be towards you.

@Samson and Luke, I feel you. I think that people are getting into some deeply personal topics and as they are being laid out to be discussed, it can seem dismissive to those who live with these issues. The sad thing is, I don't think anyone is trying to be hurtful...I think you are right about that Luke. It is a big misunderstanding.

[marurun]

I am someone who is naturally distrustful of organized religion, and the use of religion to shape public policy. However...

It should be pointed out that Christians believing everyone is a sinner (including themselves and other Christians) isn't entirely different from believing that nobody is perfect/everyone has flaws. And various people may disagree on what a flaw/sin is, but they typically respect other folks in spite of those imperfections. If my being an atheist is seen as a flaw by someone, so be it. As long as I am judged for my words and my behaviors towards others rather than my self-identity, I think it's OK. It should be the same for sexual preference.

But here is an honest question for those who might support this new Indiana law: if a marriage is performed by a judge, other legally appointed figure or authority, or a religious figure of another denomination or religion, is it the same thing as being married in your own church or faith?

Here's my own answer/interpretation: to make a wedding cake for someone doesn't mean you endorse or approve of their marriage. And it doesn't even mean marriage means the same thing to them as it does to you. The Catholic church won't marry folks who are foolish enough to tell the church they aren't interested in having kids or following Catholic teaching. So the Catholic definition of marriage is clearly different from other definitions of marriage, including the legal definition. How does endorsing a legal marriage that is clearly not a valid religious marriage in your own faith an endorsement or an approval?

[Forlorn Drifter]

I find it interesting that I am the only religious person who has actually said anything offensive, yet all the flack fell on the other religious people in the discussion.

Ridiculous.

[Nemoide]

I'll just say that sometimes I'm really glad that the religious group I'm affiliated with (Gnostic Catholic Church) is primarily based on a ritual designed by someone famously bisexual and has promoted the ideals of sexual freedom since at least the early 20th century.

We're really just a small group of eccentrics, but still...