Game collecting is not what it once was

[Hazerd]

"Channeling my inner TSTR"...


Dumb thread is super dumb...and no cheese. Where da cheese at?



Christ people. If you cheat you cheated. Sure Bill Cosby fucked some women, but when he cheated with drugs he cheated. If you use help, it's not pure. If ya read Cliff notes of a book, same thing. What's all this nonsense about breaking things into to categories? You either beat a game clean or ya don't. Anyone with a level head never has to ask "did I cheat?". For fucks sake.

Ive gotten to the point, where no matter how i beat game, im just glad i beat it. Better than shelving it and leaving it unbeaten.

[ninjainspandex]

I feel like this thread is not what it once was

[Exhuminator]

Would you put Fire Emblem Path of Radiance in for an only an hour and feel like you experienced all of it? No, right? So, my brothers, believe me when I say you have not experienced [insert shmup] in 30-60 minutes."

Illogical comparison. There is no possible way to see all of FE:POR in 60 minutes. Anybody playing the game for that long would know that. Unless you watched a playthrough on Youtube in ultra fast forward that is. There are many, many shmups that you can see every bit of in less than 60 minutes. Not all shmups have hidden paths behind 1cc barriers man. There are TONS of shmups throughout history on nearly every platform and the vast majority of those do not have hidden elitist paths. Not every shmup developer is Cave or some crazy doujin programmer for pete's sake.

Perhaps if I was only worried about beating shooters, platformers, short adventure games, and old arcade stuff yeah I could clear my backlog fairly quickly.

I stand by my original argument. A backlog of RPGs and SRPGs is more daunting than a backlog of SHOOTERS. Not shmups. SHOOTERS. There's a difference. I guess I need to get out my whiteboard and draw this in detail for some of you. Also I'm dearly sorry if some members here think only shmups existed in the "old arcade stuff" era. You were deprived of some real classics.

[mjmjr25]

Dumb thread is super dumb...

Pro-tip: we're grown adults discussing video games on the internet.

There are many, many shmups that you can see every bit of in less than 60 minutes. Not all shmups have hidden paths behind 1cc barriers man.

Can you name some, please? Preferably something 1990 or beyond.

There are TONS of shmups throughout history on nearly every platform and the vast majority of those do not have hidden elitist paths. Not every shmup developer is Cave or some crazy doujin programmer for pete's sake.

It isn't only CAVE. Treasure, Raizing, 8ing, Psikyo, NMK, Toaplan, SETA, Qute, Milestone - essentially EVERY shmup developer the past 20 years has had intricate gameplay and scoring mechanics, unlockable characters, unlockable items, tiered power-ups, that are intended to be discovered and in doing so - make a 1CC, or beating the game, attainable.

Also I'm dearly sorry if some members here think only shmups existed in the "old arcade stuff" era. You were deprived of some real classics.

confused.gif

[dunpeal2064]

I know this has probably gone on too long, but I'd like to throw something out there.

Its not really about seeing all of the game's content, its about experiencing it in some meaningful way. And no, I don't mean that however you play your game is not meaningful, but there needs to be some risk of failure for the player to care at all about an individual enemy pattern or boss.

When someone starts, even in their first baby steps, at playing shmups for 1cc, they immediately are asking questions. Lets say they pick Futari, first trouble spot is usually 2nd boss. They will ask things like "Should I be using a bomb on this phase, is there a way to lead this pattern to create openings, how long should I let a pattern cycle before killing the boss for the most gems?"

These are things that you'd never have to ask if you credit feed the game. Sure, technically you've seen the same boss and fought him, but there was no risk of failure.

So, when I (and I feel safe lumping Mike in with me on this) encourage others that the games are entirely different when played on one credit, its not a way to demean, or take away from what someone has done, its not a "I worked hard for this so you can't have it". Seriously, thats not it at all.

What we want is for these games that we love so damn much to be experienced by others, just as anyone who loves a certain game or genre wants to pull people into it. Its extremely unfortunate that this almost always has to be prefaced with "You should try to clear the game on one credit", which is so often met with a poor response. I'm sure my heated approach doesn't help one bit, but I just wanted to explain what it really is behind this push, and why the shmup community as a whole plays the games the way we do. We don't see these games as single session romps, and it really does feel like we aren't even playing the same game when someone credit feeds.

So, in the end, if you want to use credits, no one here is going to demean you for it. If you use credits to beat a shmup and want to hop in our shmup thread to talk about it, no one is going to scoff at you, we'd love to see any participation from members that generally don't post about shmups much. But please, if you do enjoy the genre, try to take a step back from what seems like an overly harsh approach, and ask yourself why an entire fanbase to a genre would all play the games the same way? Maybe just try one, just one shmup on a single credit, even if its only an hour a week. Just see for yourself, and if you don't like playing the genre like this, no one here would ever belittle you for it (Maybe Dave would). But, its when people refuse to try playing in this style at all, that we get a little sad-face inside, and I get a little *keyboard smash* and rant for pages, making little to no sense.

Its out of passion, and we just want to share this passion with you.

Okay, I'm done being mushy and sentimental, its not really my jam

[dsheinem]

Just see for yourself, and if you don't like playing the genre like this, no one here would ever belittle you for it (Maybe Dave would).

Hey now!

[Exhuminator]

>mjmjr25

For a minute this thread became a beating an RPG versus SHMUP in reference of time allotted debate. This whole incident was based on a misconception of someone construing that when I said "shooter" I meant shmup when in reality I meant FPS or third person cover shooter. (Hugely prevalent genres in the 360 generation.) If you go to something as rudimentary as Wikipedia's page:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooter_game

You will see the first games talked about are FPS and third person shooting games. It's because in modern times those genres are associated with this classification. If you continue to scroll down the page, you will see "Shoot 'em up" listed as a subgenre. This type of game gets its own name "Shoot 'em up" or "shmup" because it is not the typical kind of game associated with "shooter" as a descriptive norm in modern times. I know some of you guys who dearly love shmups have an association bias to the word shooter meaning SHMUP, but it's simply not the typical association with the term post-DOOM days. Thus shmup is not at ALL what I meant when I first mentioned the shooter genre. This whole entertaining debate was built upon a misunderstanding in the first place.

It may be true that a large portion of the shmup genre can take 40 hours of practice to beat perfectly, if you want to 1cc them or do a no-hit run. But as someone who has beat copious amounts of FPS and third person shooters, those genres I was actually referring to take on average 5-12 hours to beat, versus 30-50 hours to beat a typical RPG or SRPG. Even our favorite contrarian dsh admitted the disparity in those genres time-wise.

I hope I have finally made my stance crystal clear.

>dunpeal2064

I don't think anyone is saying shmups are in any way an inferior genre. Nor is anyone saying RPGs are a superior genre. The debate is simply most people playing shmups are quite content going through them using continues or credits and calling it a day. If they miss some optional content it's not a big deal to the average player. Just as if I miss a sidequest or secret ending in an RPG I'm not one to care about that. It's simply playing games as recreation versus personal challenge. People do get upset when those who play games as personal challenges claim those who do not aren't actually "beating games". That sort of thinking is a bunch of elitist illogical subjective nonsense. I used to think that way myself but suffering through Untold on Expert broke me of that bullshit.

[dunpeal2064]

My point is that you aren't missing optional content, you aren't even playing the same game.

Its completely, and in every way, dissimilar from missing some side quest in an RPG.

Its not about beating it, its about experiencing the game, and the experience is entirely different when you credit feed.

My post was not in regard to RPG vs Shmup, it was not about RPGs at all. It was to clarify why those of us who are vouching for the 1cc style of play feel so passionately about it. It has nothing to do with "You didn't really beat it", not even remotely.

I think (And I'm certain this will be debated, even though that is not the intent of this comparison) that a fair parallel would be if I played Untold with invincibility cheats active throughout the game. Sure, you might not hop into the Games Beaten thread and lash me for not actually beating it, but wouldn't there be some... disappointment that one of the few people on this site that actually played the game, barely did so? Wouldn't you at least want to encourage me to give it an honest try? Maybe not, but hopefully the comparison explains a little better what the actual intent here is.

I'm really just trying to point out that its not elitist, its not telling others how to play games, thats not the purpose. But, it really is an entirely different experience, far removed from simply missing some content in a different genre. Really, the only way to know for yourself just how different the games are when played this way is to just give it a try. Otherwise, I think I'm only making myself look even more elitist and prickish with each post.

[dsheinem]

. I know some of you guys who dearly love shmups have an association bias to the word shooter meaning SHMUP, but it's simply not the typical association with the term post-DOOM days. Thus shmup is not at ALL what I meant when I first mentioned the shooter genre. This whole entertaining debate was built upon a misunderstanding in the first place.

I feel like this is an appropriate place for a shameless plug.

My post was not in regard to RPG vs Shmup, it was not about RPGs at all. It was to clarify why those of us who are vouching for the 1cc style of play feel so passionately about it. It has nothing to do with "You didn't really beat it", not even remotely.

dun your comments and mjm's have been on point, and I hope that no one actually thinks this celebrating of a 1cc approach is about bragging rights/superiority/elitism/etc. anymore.

For a bit more on my own perspective..it's well known around here that I like to work through games and rack up my total for the year (and have for some time now). The first couple of years I did this I would sometimes limit myself to $1-$2 to play through a shmup, see credits, and then "count it." However, once I started really playing shmups in STGT and the like, I could no longer in good conscience do this. I have in the years since often spent 20-30+ hours on a single shmup without getting to the credits screen, all in an effort to get that 1cc and/or that high score. Sometimes I will still acquiesce and decide "ok, the 1cc is beyond my skill set, if I can do this on $1 I'll count it"...but that decision is now well after the fact of trying for many, many hours to play through without popping in a continue. It is after I have truly given the game its full due, strategized and suffered, and understood what the specific game's design is all about. These are things I could never have done for any shmup in just an hour or so.

The result is that I typically list less shmups every year on my list, even though I spend much more time with the genre. When I do count something now, the sense of accomplishment is much, much higher and the entry seems justifiable. To dun's point, I feel like I can have the kind of interesting, meaningful conversations with someone else who has played the game in the same way that I'd never be able to have with someone who spent an hour with the game and then put it back (as I used to do). As an analogy, it'd be like trying to discuss the full story of an RPG with someone who had only played through the first dungeon and then found a glitch/warp to the end credits...you'd have some common touchpoints, but they wouldn't really know what the game is all about.

Otherwise, I think I'm only making myself look even more elitist and prickish with each post.

I often feel this way in almost every thread...

[isiolia]

My point is that you aren't missing optional content, you aren't even playing the same game.

Its completely, and in every way, dissimilar from missing some side quest in an RPG.

Its not about beating it, its about experiencing the game, and the experience is entirely different when you credit feed.

Wouldn't it be largely fair to say that's true for most genres, if you really get into them?

Single player RPGs, eh, maybe, maybe not. I think the general point there is that you can't even see the whole game short of putting 20, 30, 40+ hours into it. Credit feed to credits, versus got to the first save point...if you're just trying to have played a game in your backlog, the former "counts" more I'd say

However, other genres are easily comparable. Casual MMO play versus hardcore raiding. That does change things a lot, from something a chimp could probably manage, to something that takes the best guilds in the world hundreds of attempts to do.

I guess to me, I'm perfectly content to credit feed a SHMUP just to experience it on some level, just like I'm content to play through Diablo III on Hard (or whatever) and set it aside. I know it doesn't even begin to touch the full scope of either, but it's the extent that I'm currently interested in them.

Seems more that SHMUPs just more often don't integrate a middle ground themselves. If your standard for counting a Mario game as beaten were a 100% completion speedrun, you'd wind up knowing it inside and out too, appreciate it more, all that.