Game collecting is not what it once was

[Luke]

By this criteria, that would also make my Battletoads run illegitimate. After all, I used two warps in the game, one to bypass the snow level, and the other to skip Volkmire's Inferno. If someone wants to quibble about that... well, whatever, dude.

Whatever my ass.

To beat the Toad you have to be the Toad.

It's all good Sarge, just as long as you give guys like me the extra thumbs up for not using warps in Battletoads. Beating that game 100% legit is not the most pleasant journey.

[alienjesus]

The false idea ...

Shmups are typically designed so that players can approach them in one of two ways: play for survival or for score. The former is an attempt to beat the game, and requires a 1cc.

The false idea here is that playing for survival requires a 1cc. Maybe you want to try and survive with 3 credits. Maybe your goal isn't to see how far you can get on 3 credits, but rather to see how few credits you can beat the game in. If you use 4 instead of 1, you still beat the game under those ideals - and perhaps it was your best run ever. Maybe you had to put in hours of practice and know the game like the back of your hand to even do that - you're assuming that using credits of any sort invalidates the experience that player had.


Also, as I said before, that whole 1CC thing seems very biased towards players of Cave games and other bullet hell shmups. Maybe you're playing UN squadron, a game with limited continues - does using one of those invalidate your run on that game? If so, what does that mean for using continues on games like Sonic the Hedgehog or Streets of Rage? What about Ninja Gaiden? That has infinite continues, so does using them to truck through the game invalidate your run there too?

[dsheinem]

The false idea ...

Shmups are typically designed so that players can approach them in one of two ways: play for survival or for score. The former is an attempt to beat the game, and requires a 1cc.

The false idea here is that playing for survival requires a 1cc. Maybe you want to try and survive with 3 credits. Maybe your goal isn't to see how far you can get on 3 credits, but rather to see how few credits you can beat the game in. If you use 4 instead of 1, you still beat the game under those ideals - and perhaps it was your best run ever. Maybe you had to put in hours of practice and know the game like the back of your hand to even do that - you're assuming that using credits of any sort invalidates the experience that player had.


Also, as I said before, that whole 1CC thing seems very biased towards players of Cave games and other bullet hell shmups. Maybe you're playing UN squadron, a game with limited continues - does using one of those invalidate your run on that game? If so, what does that mean for using continues on games like Sonic the Hedgehog or Streets of Rage? What about Ninja Gaiden? That has infinite continues, so does using them to truck through the game invalidate your run there too?

As I said previously, it is on a case by case basis. I also mentioned that shmups with finite continues are some of my favorites...probably because I am happy to use them! Games without finite continues I assume are designed for a 1cc, unless I have good reason to think otherwise.

[mjmjr25]

If we just agreed there's a difference (and there is) between content mastery/100%ing and simply completing a game, regardless of genre, we could mosey along. I think that's the key point people here are getting hung up on. Sure, I can't 1CC a shmup and I'll likely use my three continues on Streets of Rage, but I'm going to be scrappy and get to that credits screen. I still get a sense of satisfaction though when the credits do roll!

This is my stance as well. It's a bit like completing a course at school. One student passes with a C+ while another passes with an A+. Can we say that the C+ student didn't 'truly' pass the course since he/she didn't put in the same amount of time and effort as the A+ student? No. Can we say that the A+ student probably got more out of the course thanks to their diligence and effort? Probably. Maybe the C+ student picked up the course as an elective while their true focus remained on core curriculum for their major. It would be just like an RPG gamer playing through a shmup as a nice diversion. Did they 1CC it? No. Did they have fun and eventually roll the credits? Yes. Did they complete the game? Sure.

...and the reason this is seen as flawed by those in the shmup genre is that by this logic you could complete [insert any shmup, beat 'em up, run 'n gun] in 35 minutes. Since this is semantics - let's look at Dave's story about the developer - I happen to think the game designers intent on what beating the game entails is a good or better than any of ours. Do we really think they spend thousands of hours and tens of thousands of dollars to have their game "beat" in 35 minutes? There is a reason for attainable paths, 1ups, score based extends...

Certainly you can understand the frustration of someone putting [insert shmup] on their games beaten list the day it came out. You may have seen the credits, but if you think you beat EspGaluda in 30 minutes then you're only fooling yourself - you don't anything about the game in 30 minutes. I've played shmups for 30-40 hours and in the 41st hour i'll learn something entirely new that I had no idea was in the game or I was supposed to be doing (per the developers planning of the game).

[Exhuminator]

I've played shmups for 30-40 hours and in the 41st hour i'll learn something entirely new that I had no idea was in the game

Can you tell me a specific shmup this phenomenon occurred in? And perhaps what one of those 41st hour revelations was? Serious question.

[Ack]

...and the reason this is seen as flawed by those in the shmup genre is that by this logic you could complete [insert any shmup, beat 'em up, run 'n gun] in 35 minutes. Since this is semantics - let's look at Dave's story about the developer - I happen to think the game designers intent on what beating the game entails is a good or better than any of ours. Do we really think they spend thousands of hours and tens of thousands of dollars to have their game "beat" in 35 minutes? There is a reason for attainable paths, 1ups, score based extends...

Certainly you can understand the frustration of someone putting [insert shmup] on their games beaten list the day it came out. You may have seen the credits, but if you think you beat EspGaluda in 30 minutes then you're only fooling yourself - you don't anything about the game in 30 minutes. I've played shmups for 30-40 hours and in the 41st hour i'll learn something entirely new that I had no idea was in the game or I was supposed to be doing (per the developers planning of the game).

I don't think the developer always thinks about it. Some do, some don't. Some don't care if their customers spend 10 minutes with the game, so long as they payed. Others would prefer you play for hundreds of hours. Some devs even put in achievements in certain programs for having opened them 1000 times or played them enough hours to fill a year. It depends on the developer.

And I've played other games in other genres for 100s of hours and learned new things. A few of us played through Left 4 Dead 2 a couple of months back and heard new dialog that we hadn't heard in the 100-200(or even 300+) hours we had put into the game. But that doesn't mean we hadn't beaten the game before.

Sure, you can get frustrated when someone who isn't willing to spend 50+ hours on a single shmup and instead spends 30 minutes, get to the end credits, and claims he or she beat the game. Just like we get frustrated from our view of you sitting on your high horse claiming we accomplished nothing when we crawled, scraped, and clawed our way through 30 minutes to grasp whatever feeble victory we could out of a genre that we find difficult to play. For you, our claiming to have "beaten" the game is demeaning. To us, your claim that we haven't because we can't even begin to wrap our heads around the game for a 1CC or have the time/energy/capability/desire/skill to get to such a point is also demeaning.

[Jmustang1968]

Maybe seeing the end credits is like beating a game on easy difficulty. Just because you beat it doesnt mean you are done playing it. Just like an RPG, you can beat it and not get the best ending available.

And if games are designed to be beaten 1cc then why do they have a continue option? They specifically added in a way to continue the game which a part of the design.

[Hobie-wan]

And if games are designed to be beaten 1cc then why do they have a continue option? They specifically added in a way to continue the game which a part of the design.

Right, let's just take all those revives and life potions out of RPGs too. Real time overnight inn resting for healing from now on!

[Exhuminator]

And if games are designed to be beaten 1cc then why do they have a continue option?

To munch them quarters.

Pay quarters until such time as one's skill has reached a state in which the valhalla 1cc method is obtained. Meanwhile you've paid 40 hours worth of practice quarters. Smart devs are smart.

[Sarge]

By this criteria, that would also make my Battletoads run illegitimate. After all, I used two warps in the game, one to bypass the snow level, and the other to skip Volkmire's Inferno. If someone wants to quibble about that... well, whatever, dude.

Whatever my ass.

To beat the Toad you have to be the Toad.

It's all good Sarge, just as long as you give guys like me the extra thumbs up for not using warps in Battletoads. Beating that game 100% legit is not the most pleasant journey.

Oh, I agree. I've beaten the other stages legit, so I have no qualms about skipping them in that run. Super duper thumbs up for going through 100% legit.