Kickstarter "Tropes vs Women in Videogames"

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BoneSnapDeez
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Re: Kickstarter "Tropes vs Women in Videogames"

Post by BoneSnapDeez »

Niode wrote:The problem is whenever she is challenged or somebody points out flaws with her critique they are instantly lumped in with 'haters' and their opinion is dismissed as noise regardless of how valid it is.
Who is doing this? Is she? Where has she dismissed "valid" critiques?

You keep bringing up these vague notions - that she's unfair even to the "reasonable" people - without any evidence.
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Re: Kickstarter "Tropes vs Women in Videogames"

Post by Erik_Twice »

Key-Glyph wrote:Both on the internet and out in the real world, many people are refusing to confront this reality. And I mean really confront it -- to allow it to sink in and inspire empathy.
I know you say this with the best intentions, but I resent the implication that the reason I or any other person in this thread is criticizing Sarkeesian because we don't have empathy or condone her harrasment :/

I don't think you meant to say that, but I really think it's something that has taken its root in the debate. There's a lot of polarization and tribalism going on and it seems that the moment someone determines you don't take the topic seriously enough, you are labelled a category traitor, a concern troll, Social Justice Warrior or Gamergater.

And since many of these topics are circlejerks, the moments you stand back a bit or don't agree fully with a part of it, someone is going to jump on and say that's proof you do not care "enough". So you either become more radical or shut up. There's no room for sincere disagreement, and many keep pushing the idea that if you are scolded you must "put up and apologize" and "get educated" which hides the nastiest idea of them all: That they are right and the only possible way someone may think they are not is willfull ingorance.

I just don't agree with her videos and don't think they are very well done.I really don't treat her any differently than I do with any other critic :/
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Re: Kickstarter "Tropes vs Women in Videogames"

Post by Opa Opa »

I don't think anyone here is saying "can't take the trolls? get off the web!". Any threat to anyone is inappropriate, online or in-person (I'm pretty sure we're all on the same page there). However, the internet gives people the perceived anonymity that they feel safe to say whatever pops into their head without recourse. You know it and I know it. If you need examples (which I'm sure you don't), go to any random youtube video comment section to see nasty things people are calling each other.
dsheinem wrote:I am disheartened by people who see her discussion about harassment as self-serving, strategic, and itself tied to her critique of tropes.
Just to clarify, you find no correlation between acknowledging the haters/trolls/lowlifes and further elevating the exposure of the persona she has crafted by becoming featured on most popular websites and magazines?
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Re: Kickstarter "Tropes vs Women in Videogames"

Post by Niode »

BoneSnapDeez wrote:
Niode wrote:The problem is whenever she is challenged or somebody points out flaws with her critique they are instantly lumped in with 'haters' and their opinion is dismissed as noise regardless of how valid it is.
Who is doing this? Is she? Where has she dismissed "valid" critiques?

You keep bringing up these vague notions - that she's unfair even to the "reasonable" people - without any evidence.
I'm not pulling this out of my ass, this is something I have seen frequently in any open discussion regarding these topics, if it's not Anita indirectly sweeping these critics under the rug it's the vast majority of her followers/supporters that do the same thing. Go ahead and see it for yourself, look at any internet discussion and any discussion that raises valid points of contention with her work is swarmed upon by armies of SJW who dismiss the arguments without a proper counter argument. It happens all the time. Just because you choose not to see it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. The people who are on the same page as me all have the same issue. Any discourse on this issue is dismissed under the 'part of the problem' banner. It doesn't matter how valid your points are if you're not a 'feminist' to these people. If you're not a 'feminist' you're part of the problem.

I use 'feminist' here because I don't think these people actually do care about equal rights, they certainly don't care about patriarchal males opinions and will dismiss into smoke any male that even dares attempt a discourse on feminist issues. Seriously, go and visit any post regarding these types of issues and see how quickly the 'you're a man, you don't understand' card gets played. These 'feminists' are just as sexist as the patriarchy they seem to be rallying against.
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Re: Kickstarter "Tropes vs Women in Videogames"

Post by Exhuminator »

Opa Opa wrote:Just to clarify, you find no correlation between acknowledging the haters/trolls/lowlifes and further elevating the exposure of the persona she has crafted by becoming featured on most popular websites and magazines?
Don't you have any women you love in your life JESUS MAN
Niode wrote:These 'feminists' are just as sexist as the patriarchy they seem to be rallying against.
Often it does appear to be so.

Howabout we all just be Humanists mmkay.
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Re: Kickstarter "Tropes vs Women in Videogames"

Post by marurun »

ZeroAX wrote:I'm just talking about a practical solution. Calling the police on them and ignoring them are the 2 best actions in this case :/.
Unfortunately, in this case, ignoring them won't make them go away. This isn't about her. This is about the trolls. The level of harassment she's facing just from making these videos (your feelings about the videos aside) is so monumental that she can't ignore it. Hell, she HAS been threatened with personal harm by people with her personal information (and my understanding is in that case she did call the cops). Most of the stuff that's sent to her on Twitter, what are the cops going to do? Sometimes, the only way to deal with a problem is to shine a spotlight on it and reveal it for what it is. Since this harassment seems to be so vehement and so constant, she has to expose it so that others will be able to come forward and talk about their own harassment (like Brianna Wu, for example, and other less-known folks).

I don't think she's doing this to make her videos more popular. I think she's doing this because she sees a genuine problem and thinks the only way to begin to deal with it is by bringing attention to it. We don't deal with cultural problems by sweeping them under the rug. We bring them out into the open repeatedly until there's finally a critical mass of people willing to do something about it.

And whether or not you intend to be victim-blaming or think you are victim-blaming, by accusing her of using the trolling to further her own career, victim-blaming is effectively what you are doing, intentional or not. You are putting some of the responsibility for this horrible, inappropriate vitriol on her. The ONLY people responsible for this harassment are the harassers. Period. There are no shades of gray in this. The harassers are fully responsible for their actions and they chose this path.
Exhuminator wrote:The issue I and others have is that context cannot be irrelevant, that is purely illogical.

Tropes are meaningless without context.
You are right, but she's providing all the context her examination of these tropes needs. It is the context of it being in video games. Discussion of tropes does not need detailed context for every situation. Discussion of tropes at the level she's taking doesn't need to examine every single instance for its full value within the greater whole. She's not digging down to that level.

Put yourself in a woman's shoes. You pick up GTA. This is a AAA title everyone is talking about, and you're a gamer so you want to play it. Your option is to play a male lead. Most of the women in the game you'll be interacting with in any level of detail are hookers (or similar). Your options are to ignore them (they are scenery, decoration), pay them (use them), or kill them (abuse them). Hitman is a popular game so maybe you wanna give that a try. In Hitman you play a dude. Most of the female characters in the game are strippers. You can ignore them (scenery) or kill them (abuse them).

You can argue that by nature of the kind of game they are that the GTA titles and Hitman have appropriate presentations of women to the tone of the game, but when you look at them as part of the gaming landscape as a whole, they're just more games that have male leads, mostly male characters (good guys or bad guys), and in which most of the women are whorish and only used as decoration.

THIS is how you discuss tropes in an entire genre. THIS is what it means to do an overview. The context of her videos is the gaming landscape writ large, and in that larger, general context, it does not matter one whit whether this game or that game is using these stilted representations "appropriately".

When having these discussions, you have to set the level of detail, and she's doing broad and shallow for her examination. That's how you do an overview. Maybe at some later date she'll craft some videos that specifically dig down into deeper context and show how different games vary in their detailed representations, but the videos she's making now aren't intended to do that, and there's nothing wrong with that. That doesn't make these videos invalid. It doesn't necessarily invalidate her points. You have to look at fields from a broad perspective before you go digging deeper. You have to open the door to discussions first. And she's still laying the groundwork for those deeper discussions.
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Re: Kickstarter "Tropes vs Women in Videogames"

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marurun, I could hug you.
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Re: Kickstarter "Tropes vs Women in Videogames"

Post by Jmustang1968 »

There is a reason the discussion of her harrassment eventually changed to video critique. it is because All of our initial reactions were condemning such behavior And not dismissing or deflecting it. How much of a discussuon can really be had if we all agree on that?

Little do they know, those who harrass her further prove some of her points. Those people give us fellow gamers a bad name just by an association of hobbies. But, what are we to do?
This is the internet, it has been around awhile, and we arr all too aware of the amount of idiocy and shit spewed on it all the time. How does one go to clean all that up? Part of what makes the internet so awesome and what it is also enables these people to act the way they do. Trying to clamp down on that would remove freedoms from the internet.

What is weird, is where are these people in real life? Just taking numbers ad percentages, we should be encountering these people outside of the net. And you know what? They probably seem fairly normal, it is just the anonymity of the internet that seems to turn some into monsters.
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Re: Kickstarter "Tropes vs Women in Videogames"

Post by ZeroAX »

marurun wrote: And whether or not you intend to be victim-blaming or think you are victim-blaming, by accusing her of using the trolling to further her own career, victim-blaming is effectively what you are doing, intentional or not. You are putting some of the responsibility for this horrible, inappropriate vitriol on her.
I don't place any blame on her, on the contrary I am of the opinion that victims should be open about the abuse they receive and use it to further their message, and there's nothing shady or unethical about that.

Again it's probably a cultural thing, you guys just have such a binary way of looking at things.
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Re: Kickstarter "Tropes vs Women in Videogames"

Post by Jmustang1968 »

ZeroAX wrote:
marurun wrote: And whether or not you intend to be victim-blaming or think you are victim-blaming, by accusing her of using the trolling to further her own career, victim-blaming is effectively what you are doing, intentional or not. You are putting some of the responsibility for this horrible, inappropriate vitriol on her.
I don't place any blame on her, on the contrary I am of the opinion that victims should be open about the abuse they receive and use it to further their message, and there's nothing shady or unethical about that.

Again it's probably a cultural thing, you guys just have such a binary way of looking at things.
No we dont, it is made a binary thing when discussed online. You get lumped into one camp or the other.
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