Kickstarter "Tropes vs Women in Videogames"

[dsheinem]

Exhuminator, criticism is one of those activities that has worked and can work to change cultural attitudes. We pointed this out in the other thread, I thought.

Again, context is irrelevant for what she is trying to do. Like I said before:

Yes, if you want to judge A BOOK you should read it. Same with A GAME.

If you want to point to TROPES IN GAMES [AS A WHOLE] then you don't need to do that. You can look for tropes and identify them, and then try to make some arguments about why those tropes occur so often.

Do I need to read the full text of a speech or know the full context of every instance a politician invokes 9/11 to know that the invocation itself has a particular currency and expected effects? Do I need to watch every horror movie on its own terms to know that audiences revel in certain kinds of tropes and to offer a critique of their use in the genre? Do I need to play every amnesiac adolescent JRPG in order to question the contemporary relevance of the trope? Do you need to experience every online shooting community to know that on the whole there's a lot of hate speech taking place in games?

I also did a quick copy/paste...I've written over 2000 words in this thread in about 24 hours (not counting quoted bits) and think I'll ease off for a bit. Suffice to say, I think these most common criticisms about her videos are bunk.

[Jmustang1968]

Well Exhuminator, our society is reflected in our media, but it goes both ways and our media also helps shape and reinforce aspects of society. So just because these things exist in other media and are prevalent in our society, doesn't mean we can't explore or criticize content in games.

My criticism isnt in the exercise, but morr so with her methodologies and conclusions she arrives at.

[Exhuminator]

Exhuminator, criticism is one of those activities that has worked and can work to change cultural attitudes. We pointed this out in the other thread, I thought.

The only thing I agreed with you about in that instance, was that criticism can affect sales, and sales can affect genre proliferation. However, I did not concede that criticism can directly affect actual cultural content in anything.

Again, context is irrelevant for what she is trying to do. Like I said before:

The issue I and others have is that context cannot be irrelevant, that is purely illogical.

Tropes are meaningless without context. You could say that in the western film genre guns always kill people, and killing people is evil, so westerns make guns out to be evil. "Guns are evil" therefore becomes a trope seemingly portrayed by westerns. However, that ignores the context that sometimes guns are used to kill evil people in westerns, and thereby saving good people who were in mortal danger. In that context, despite killing someone, the gun was not used as an evil influence. It was used to stop an evil influence. Thereby making the "guns are evil" perceived trope to be totally fallible based on context.

Because of context, you have to examine each and every game's individual portrayal of women on its own merit. You cannot simply point at a perceived holistic trope and ignore the circumstances in which that game is portraying women within it. That is not proper logic in my opinion, but rather gross generalization.

Do I need to read the full text of a speech or know the full context of every instance a politician invokes 9/11 to know that the invocation itself has a particular currency and expected effects?

If you want to be a well informed voter or political pundit, yes you do. If not you can only assume the motives of that politician without hearing him out fairly.

Do I need to watch every horror movie on its own terms to know that audiences revel in certain kinds of tropes and to offer a critique of their use in the genre?

If you want to be a well informed horror film critic or genre connoisseur, yes you do.

As for the amnesiac JRPG and FPS trash talking tropes, I could get into that but let's just save ourselves some time here.

Suffice to say, I think these most common criticisms about her videos are bunk.

And you make strong arguments so it's fun to read your thoughts! As for my own, I think that examining any holistic medium through trope tunnel vision without proper context is totally bunk. Thus generalizing a complex matter and ignoring the finer details can only lead to an ignorant perspective. Especially if there is a biased slant affecting that perception as so clearly there is one with Anita's videos.

[Key-Glyph]

I'm surprised by how little of the past six+ pages focused on the horrific harassment Sarkeesian is receiving, considering it was the topic that started up this latest conversation.

I'm all for the usual debate when there's more material or insight to discuss, but specifically in context of dsh's originating post, is no one else bothered by how easily the conversation slid off of the point? And that it did so just to basically rehash the same old arguments? It seems to me that there is almost a knee-jerk reaction to reiterate one's position on Sarkeesian's material no matter how many times it's been previously stated -- almost as if some of the biggest concerns are which “side” you’re perceived to be on, and whether someone might assume you've switched yours since a few months ago if you haven't published a recent reminder. You can see this all over the internet. And it happened here, even when such concerns were only tangentially related to the crux of the link dsh supplied, and despite the relatively safe assumption that the folks involved in this thread are invested enough to have read it in its entirety anyway.

Even if EVERYTHING she has written is 100% wrong, that still doesn't excuse the level of bile she gets on her Twitter.

Both on the internet and out in the real world, many people are refusing to confront this reality. And I mean really confront it -- to allow it to sink in and inspire empathy. Even among the well-meaning, when a conversation is opened with a general "let's bear witness to this awful occurrence" and has its focus immediately deflected to "so here's my opinion on the target's/movement's views," the plight is diminished to a tangential issue and people get used to looking away from it.

Because regardless of what you think of Sarkeesian's work, she is being constantly harassed with rape and death threats as we speak, and this is disgusting behavior that we as a society have the potential to actually do something about, and should want to, even through the simple act of recognizing the abuse and condemning it. I truly believe everybody here would agree with that.

I guess all I’m saying is: detached debate is great, but allow yourself to be horrified by the treatment she’s getting from time to time too. That aspect of the kerfuffle is not just a thought experiment. There’s a real human being out there who’s being terrorized on a regular basis for no good reason, and it needs to be remembered and examined far more than it currently is.

[ZeroAX]

Ok yeah I agree, but what can we do? Je Suis Anitta?

And I agree that even if she was 100% wrong no one has the right to harass her, but when she uses the harassment she receives to support her opinions, isn't she herself brining the debate over her opinions into the harassment conversation?

She doesn't get harassed because of her opinions, she is getting harassed because the world is filled with sick, fucked up people, either they are rapists, jihadists, neo-nazis, hooligans ect, who just want people to notice them through fear or violence.

I will disagree with anyone who says she deserves it, or that she's "playing the victim", but as I said: if she is going to say "this just proves my opinions" into the conversation about her harassment, then I can't resist to be like "yeah, I will give my life for your right to say what you want, but do know I greatly disagree with it".

And who is to judge what's the right balance to hold on this subject? Must we all be so American-politically correct that after every sentence we must state the obvious? I'm sorry, that is tiring and it stifles debate in my opinion.

[Opa Opa]

Can't you just disable Twitter comments/replies?

[Exhuminator]

While I agree that the harassment she is receiving is terrible and not deserving, I also realize she publicly reveals this negatively as a catalyst to bolster a martyr status, and in turn gain more support for her Feminist Frequency project. I'm not saying "she's asking for it", but I am saying she's using this harassment to her advantage. Strategically that's a smart move for establishing herself as a victim of ignorant male oppression. But making a big deal out of the negativity she receives is also fueling a negative feedback cycle. It should be balanced out by showing the amount of positive feedback she receives and making an equally big deal out of that. I believe in doing so it would rebelliously show she's making headway despite what the bullies push on her.

[ZeroAX]

Strategically that's a smart move for establishing herself as a victim of ignorant male oppression. But making a big deal out of the negativity she receives is also fueling a negative feedback cycle. It should be balanced out by showing the amount of positive feedback she receives and making an equally big deal out of that. I believe in doing so it would rebelliously show she's making headway despite what the bullies push on her.

Strategically that's good marketing, and it's a quite ok use of "the game's" "rules".

I don't think it makes ane sense to try and compare negative to positive feedback. Specially most people who agree don't bother to write a comment/tweet saying something positive.

[dsheinem]

Can't you just disable Twitter comments/replies?

I also realize she publicly reveals this negatively as a catalyst to bolster a martyr status

if she is going to say "this just proves my opinions" into the conversation about her harassment, then I can't resist to be like "yeah, I will give my life for your right to say what you want, but do know I greatly disagree with it".

WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK AGAIN AGAIN AGAIN

I am really, truly trying to stay out of this thread for a bit, but this is inane.

Yes, you can block replies on Twitter...but why should she be forced to no longer have Twitter interaction because of asshats like these? They want her to go away and stop engaging the public. If she does, they win. If she exposes them, they get banned, awareness is raised, and maybe something more substantive can be done about the most serious threats.

And martyr status? FFS, can she fucking write one sentence or make one point without everyone thinking she's some kind of narcissistic attention-whore? She's been receiving shit like this for years now, and the one instance of her dumping a week worth of it into a post she's automatically chastised? "Oh what a good strategy to attract more feminists". WTF?!

I read this yesterday and even though it comes from that commie pinko leftist feminist male-hating website Jezebel I think all of you who are like "whatever, martyr, just get off social media and stop saying that these people are part of the culture you critique" should give it a good goddamn read. People like this are wreaking havoc in the lives of women writers, well beyond Twitter. Even if it was just Twitter, why should anyone be forced to live in fear because they say games and gamer culture is msyoginistic?

And these idiots who post to her Twitter ABSOLUTELY do make her point about the danger of misogyny within gamer culture. I don't care how small a percentage of gamers do this stuff or what percentage of games feature misogynistic tropes, the fact is that it exists.

Do any of you have women in your life you care about? Do you have mothers? Wives? Girlfriends? Sisters? Daughters? What if they posted a tweet saying "Wow, gamer culture has a lot of misogyny in it?" or "I can't stand video games, too many of them treat women like crap." Regardless of whether you agreed with them, should they just "take" whatever abuse comes? Should they be forced to turn off interactions with the rest of the world because of these people? Should they be forced to worry about whether any of the rape threats are real?

What if they made a video that was a lot more substantive? Would it be ok then? If they publicly called out the asshats attacking them, would you accuse them of being a martyr for a cause and tell them to just stop worrying about dumb 4chan dweebs?

Maybe you aren't trying to defend these comments, but...to Key-Glyph's point...there's a lot of stuff in this thread that is all like "Well, these comments are horrible BUT...". There should be no BUT.

[Exhuminator]

Specially most people who agree don't bother to write a comment/tweet saying something positive.

That's what I'm saying the issue is, we don't really know how much positive reinforcement she gets. That's why it would be good to see a dump of positive statements in the same manner that she revealed the negative. Does she get an equal amount of support as she does denigration? It would be interesting to verifiably know if that's the case.

Do any of you have women in your life you care about?

Come on man, take it down a notch. I haven't seen anyone in this thread say Anita deserves the cyber abuse she's getting thrown at her. You cherry picked one comment out of my paragraph above and disregard all surrounding context to make it fit a bias.

She's been receiving shit like this for years now, and the one instance of her dumping a week worth of it into a post she's automatically chastised?

Actually I've seen articles on NeoGAF for a long time now talking about the abuse she gets. Including her publicly saying as such. Her most recent mass reveal was not a surprise to myself or many others.