Kickstarter "Tropes vs Women in Videogames"

[Ack]

Let me make this easier for folks:

Since we’re talking about interactive gameplay within a three-dimensional environment, we need to consider the fact that players are encouraged to participate directly in the objectification of women through control of the player character, and by extension control of the game camera. In other words, games move the viewer from the position of spectator to that of participant in the media experience.

The choice of language is what I believe people are taking issue with. Allowed, yes. Encouraged? Does the game reward you in some way for participating in the objectification of women more so than some other course of action? Does not participating in objectification of women actually hinder the player in some way or halt progression?

I believe this is what Jmustang is referring to.

[dsheinem]

the MEDIUM encourages it in instances where objectification exists, moreso than others.

[isiolia]

Yes and no. It critiques her for being represented as female by stereotypical tropes(the color pink specifically) but fails to recognize that every character was represented by stereotypical gender-associated tropes in the DKC series. The girls had hairstyles, a shawl, and a bikini, and in Dixie's case, a color, while the guys had a necktie, a ball cap, a suit, a bald spot, and a pair of swim trunks to signify their gender.

Most of those design elements do more to give personality to the individual characters than identify them as male, which I think was something brought up for other series. The default is male character with x attribute (old, young, surfer, game show host, etc), where Dixie's attribute is girl, complete with stereotypical design elements.

Were it intended to be a complete look at the series, then yeah, it'd be lacking. As a brief mention of a character that happens to fit into the general trope being discussed, eh, again, seems fair. As a visual design critique, it doesn't take playing the game to make either.

But see, this presents a new problem when considering tropes or issues of sexism in gaming: how many are supposed to be tongue-in-cheek references to things previously used regularly?

Probably fewer than claim to be.

Done right, it probably wouldn't need to be questioned, as it'd stand in contrast to generally better writing.

[pepharytheworm]

Using her example. If I put a toaster in a room would that not be a form of "encouraging" you to make toast?

[Opa Opa]

No, you didn't give us any bread.

[marurun]

I think part of the problem some folks are having here is maybe a less than full understanding of the word trope.

From Merriam Websters on-line:

b : a common or overused theme or device : cliché

Naturally, whenever you are discussing tropes, some of them may be appropriate in context. However, it is the frequency of occurrence, the ever-presence of something that makes it a trope, and once something is a trope, it almost doesn't matter if it is appropriate in context any longer.

A lot of horror movie tropes make sense in the context of horror movies. They are still tropes. The stripper in a video game as someone you can kill, whether it makes sense in context or not, is a cliche at this point. It's a trope. And the fact that so many games exist for which you can make the argument "It's appropriate to find strippers in a game of this genre/in this setting" (and it's often big-name titles that sell well) just goes to show that the games market is not especially welcoming or friendly to woman gamers.

[dsheinem]

I think part of the problem some folks are having here is maybe a less than full understanding of the word trope.

From Merriam Websters on-line:

b : a common or overused theme or device : cliché

Naturally, whenever you are discussing tropes, some of them may be appropriate in context. However, it is the frequency of occurrence, the ever-presence of something that makes it a trope, and once something is a trope, it almost doesn't matter if it is appropriate in context any longer.

A lot of horror movie tropes make sense in the context of horror movies. They are still tropes. The stripper in a video game as someone you can kill, whether it makes sense in context or not, is a cliche at this point. It's a trope. And the fact that so many games exist for which you can make the argument "It's appropriate to find strippers in a game of this genre/in this setting" (and it's often big-name titles that sell well) just goes to show that the games market is not especially welcoming or friendly to woman gamers.

nicely said.

[Erik_Twice]

However, it is the frequency of occurrence, the ever-presence of something that makes it a trope, and once something is a trope, it almost doesn't matter if it is appropriate in context any longer.

This is like arguing that once society as a whole does something it almost doesn't matter what a given indidual does.

It's also absurd from an artistic point of view, a work of art is not a collection of narrative devices, much less the devices found in other works.

Using her example. If I put a toaster in a room would that not be a form of "encouraging" you to make toast?

That's a sophism that doesn't adress the complexity of game design.

Games can allow and not encourage and it can encourage and not condone and it can condone and not make people more sexist. Sarkeesian does not make these extremely important distinctions.



Here's a question: How is this any different than playing as a Nazi in a game, like taking the role of Rommel?

[Jmustang1968]

I fully understand what a trope is, but thanks for the definition... she just isn't identifying tropes, but is attributing intent, meaning, and inherent negativity behind them.

I actually can't think of that many games were you have the ability to kill a stripper. In that specific game they only exist to add accuracy and relevance to the locale. The fact they can be killed has nothing to do with who they are in the game or what they represent as any character can be killed. These type of games are more reflections of criminal institutions found in movies or even real life.

The whole how this adds to misogyny to games and makes it hostile to women just becomes silly at this point. So, should a game that allows the player the freedom to kill any character that exists not have women or scantily clad women in it because the player could potentially harm them? Or should they be in the game but special constraints be coded in to allow certain characters to not be killable? See how this starts to become absurd? There are some good examples of hostility directed at women in games and this isn't one of them.

[dsheinem]

So, should a game that allows the player the freedom to kill any character that exists not have women or scantily clad women in it because the player could potentially harm them? Or should they be in the game but special constraints be coded in to allow certain characters to not be killable? See how this starts to become absurd? There are some good examples of hostility directed at women in games and this isn't one of them.

This is a very fair point, and I think another example of where it is fair to critique the study of tropes as such. Your argument here has nothing to do with sex or gender per se, it has everything to do with whether we can talk about the trope of "women as background decoration" across various games in exactly the same way. In other words, I read your critique as asking: Is it fair to highlight women's presence as "background decoration" in a game where almost everything germane to the setting is provided as an interactive background decoration? The game tries to have everything, so of course those tropes will also be there! Right?

I think her rebuttal would be to ask what other representations of interactive background women exist in the Hitman games? Are there lots of businesswomen, stay-at-home moms, teachers, gangsters, youtube stars, etc. that are also part of the "background" of the game that would exist in these settings and can be interacted with in the same way? Are they presented in ways that are non-sexualized? Are there scantily clad male characters in the background that provide similar sexualized stereotypes for the player to interact with in the same way? If the answer to these questions is mostly "no" then I think her point still stands: a primary representation of women in these games is as an object, a background decoration that is often sexualized...and Hitman is another example of a game that provides this (even if the gameplay dynamics of that representation is a little different than some of the other games in her video).