Kickstarter "Tropes vs Women in Videogames"

[Opa Opa]

All NPC's, save the target, are background decoration in Hitman.

The PC is not encouraged to "participate directly in the objectification of women". That's not how the game works. You're actually punished for screwing around making mistakes.

Any body could be used as a distraction. Not that you'd want to do that (usually penalized for discovered bodies).

[Jmustang1968]

Still taking things out of context. The save states and law alerts are apart of the core and modern game design. It isnt a tool to help gamers be violent specifically toward women. I also don't see how "Players are meant to derive a perverse pleasure from desecrating the bodies of unsuspecting virtual female characters". They are in a strip club, therefore strippers are expected to be characters in that location. The game is still taking a negative reaction to the player choosing to partake in such actions.

I agree that some gamers may take pleasure in doing just what was said. But the game wasnt necessarily designed or meant to be that. It is more of a sandbox freedom of action type of game.

[Blu]

But yet there's an achievement in Red Dead Redemption for tying a woman up, laying her on the train tracks, and letting her be mutilated by the approaching train.

Thoughts? I'd feel like that'd support her argument.

[MrPopo]

But yet there's an achievement in Red Dead Redemption for tying a woman up, laying her on the train tracks, and letting her be mutilated by the approaching train.

Thoughts? I'd feel like that'd support her argument.

I thought you also needed to twirl a mustache to get that achievement.

[Opa Opa]

But yet there's an achievement in Red Dead Redemption for tying a woman up, laying her on the train tracks, and letting her be mutilated by the approaching train.

Thoughts? I'd feel like that'd support her argument.

I thought you also needed to twirl a mustache to get that achievement.

Kinect face and hand tracking required.

[Ack]

But yet there's an achievement in Red Dead Redemption for tying a woman up, laying her on the train tracks, and letting her be mutilated by the approaching train.

Thoughts? I'd feel like that'd support her argument.

But see, this presents a new problem when considering tropes or issues of sexism in gaming: how many are supposed to be tongue-in-cheek references to things previously used regularly? The villain tying up a woman and leaving her on the tracks was a stereotype in Westerns going back to the silent era. Is it a smack at the representation of females in games or a knowing wink at the history and tropes of the genre that the game represents?

[ZeroAX]

I have to say this makes me feel uncomfortable. It's like discussing Israeli policies towards Palestine, or Muslim integration in Europe. You have arguments to make, but you don't like an important part of the crowd that gets behind your opinion and their true motives for it.

dsh do you really feel like there isn''t a lot of legitimate criticism against her work? Take the entire clearly misogyny inspired attacks again her (and those attacks are clearly against HER and not HER WORK).

I just feel this is important subject and we don't need populist methodologies to analyze it.

[dsheinem]

dsh do you really feel like there isn''t a lot of legitimate criticism against her work.

I never said that. I said:

I'm more of a fan of the idea of her videos than the work itself, and I think there are fair criticisms to be made of how she talks about games.

All NPC's, save the target, are background decoration in Hitman.

How many of them are wearing pasties?

Still taking things out of context. The save states and law alerts are apart of the core and modern game design.

She's not interested in context, she's interested in counting up instances of tropes. The trope is what is troubling to her as a critic of how women are portrayed in games.

Even if Hitman isn't a great example of her larger point (and I think it is), it could easily be replaced by many other games that have the same kind of stuff in it. That's her point, and one that would stand even if she cut Hitman specifically out of her video.

[Jmustang1968]

Hitman is just the convenient example. I dont think it so much of a trope. A woman character exists as a stripper in a strip club. This is just representing what one would expect or a somewhat realistic depiction of such an establishment.

And of course she is interested in context, meaning, and intent. She uses words like 'player is encouraged' and 'players are meant...' when they really aren't. She is applying intent that is a misrepresentation.

[dsheinem]

context, meaning, and intent

I don't know that we can conflate these easily

She uses words like 'player is encouraged' and 'players are meant...' when they really aren't. She is applying intent that is a misrepresentation.

Here's where she says that:

Since we’re talking about interactive gameplay within a three-dimensional environment, we need to consider the fact that players are encouraged to participate directly in the objectification of women through control of the player character, and by extension control of the game camera. In other words, games move the viewer from the position of spectator to that of participant in the media experience.

At this point in the clip she is talking about objectification as being different in games than in film or TV, etc, not specifically about Hitman per se. The clip she uses at this point is not the optional "plop the stripper in a dumpster" bit but rather a portion of the game where there's a photo shoot going on, a portion that seems a bit more innocuous than what was brought up previously. And, again, it is surrounded by many, many, many, many similar examples.

I have dinner, meetings, etc. - out of here until later tonight!