Joystiq lives on

[Sarge]

I want more breakdown on those charts. Are those controlled at all for level or position? Do we factor in how many women actually want to enter the gaming industry? Most of the charts don't even try to control for relevant factors at all. Just like the "74 cents to the dollar" figure that is bandied about as the gap between men and women overall.

Put another way, I don't think those industries are actively or passively trying their darndest to keep women out.

[Ack]

Criticism has its place, but criticism doesn't change the world. Martin Luther King Jr. lectured his criticism on racism until he was blue in the face, but it wasn't until after the hero was murdered that the country took action and did something about it. Actions change the world. There's no such thing as a Youtube hero.

First, this is factually wrong. Martin Luther King, Jr., organized and/or participated these events while still alive:

Montgomery Bus Boycott, 1955
Formation of the Southern Christian Leadership Conference(SCLC), 1957
Formation of the Albany Movement, 1961
The Birmingham campaign, 1963
The March on Washington, 1963
Teaming the SCLC with the St. Augustine Movement, 1964
Selma marches, 1965

King was arrested 29 times over the course of his life for protests, sit ins, etc. During this time he gave numerous speeches, radio addresses, television addresses, wrote numerous articles and books, and preached numerous sermons urging others to action. And people joined him with actions. They created organizations like the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee and organized or participated in protests and campaigns to change public opinion on the status of African Americans in the United States. King's words and critiques are what lead people to take action, and they did so while he was still alive. Yes, his death galvanized some who had not previously participated, but it is completely ignorant of history to claim that no one did a thing until after he was assassinated.

[J T]

Thank you Ack!

[dsheinem]

I want more breakdown on those charts. Are those controlled at all for level or position? Do we factor in how many women actually want to enter the gaming industry? Most of the charts don't even try to control for relevant factors at all. Just like the "74 cents" figure that is bandied about as the gap between men and women overall.

Put another way, I don't think those industries are actively or passively trying their darndest to keep women out.

Here's a (more recent) article that this kind of chart data comes from: http://www.gamasutra.com/salarysurvey2014.pdf

METHODOLOGY:

With the help of research firm Audience Insights, we sent email invitations to Game Developers Conference 2014 attendees, and Gamasutra readers in May 2014 inviting them to participate in our annual salary survey.

Although we received well over 4,000 unique responses worldwide, not all who participated in this survey provided sufficient compensation information to be included in the findings. Among participants, 6.5% were disqualified as not having derived their income directly from the game industry.

We also excluded cases in which the compensation was given as less than $10,000 USD, and the highest salary range was limited to $200,000 USD to prevent a limited number of outliers from distorting the true central tendency of the computed average salaries in each category. We further excluded records missing key demographic and classification information.

While there were participants from all parts of the world, this report focuses primarily on U.S. compensation, plus additional consolidated figures for respondents from Canada and Europe. The total sample reflected in the data presented for U.S. is 1,246; for Canada 292; and for Europe 573. For other global regions there was insufficient sample size to include in the report. The sample represented in our salary survey can be projected to the overall game developer community with a margin of error, for the U.S., of plus or minus 2.6% at the 95% confidence level. The margin of error increases for specific subgroups reported within this community.

[Exhuminator]

a whole lot of stuff that represents why I just said a million woman march on Hollywood could actually matter

KONY 2012 NEVAH FOGET

Joseph Kony still remains at large and the LRA still exists. So what exactly did that Youtube video change?

@Ack - I am well aware of what King accomplished while he was alive. I am also well aware of things that changed after he died. I didn't need the history lesson, but thanks anyway.

OVERALL GUYS : I am not saying that criticizing culture is pointless. I am only saying that criticism on its own will not change culture.

[Sarge]

Thanks for that, it helps a bit. I still want to know, though, if they're comparing like work. Just presenting an average salary doesn't help, because we don't know if they're senior programmers or just starting. Are the gaming industry numbers encapsulating the entirety of the industry, from video to audio to programming? And what's the breakdown of men vs. women there? Are there ancillary benefits that we're not counting?

I guess I'm just saying I want to make sure we're actually comparing like work + benefits. Typically when those factors are controlled for, the wage gap shrinks to pennies. And it's certainly worth figuring out what's left there, which could be anything from an unwillingness to be as aggressive negotiating raises as men, or desiring other factors above raw pay, which men tend to go for.

As for under-representation, that's certainly worth looking at, too. How many women actually go into programming? I know some, but there are a lot more men. I'm not sure it's something that appeals to them as a whole, much like a lot of the gaming industry is perceived (wrongly or rightly) as more for men / boys. Kind of like there are very few male nurses, and that profession is seen (also for better or worse) as largely for women.

[dsheinem]

The Kony thing was a joke.

I am only saying that criticism on its own will not change culture.

If we are talking about art/entertainment/writing/etc. than criticism absolutely changes that stuff. Witness the power of Metacritic (for better or worse) on modern game design. Witness the power of the Academy nominee on the trajectory of a studio and of careers. Witness the value of a good review in the NY Review of Books. Witness the outrage of the internet denizens on the direction of some TV shows. These kinds of criticisms do change culture.

[J T]

OVERALL GUYS : I am not saying that criticizing culture is pointless. I am only saying that criticism on its own will not change culture.

Alright, I think we can all agree that criticism without action won't lead to change in anything other than a possible change of opinion. And at the same time, action isn't likely to happen unless someone puts forward the kind of criticism that makes people want to change their minds and act differently.

Your point is that we should all take action for feminism in the games industry rather than just be critical. So lets do that! Lets demand that game developers give us positive examples of female role models to balance out what is typically there now. Lets create opportunities for female game designers in business and do more to attract college females into areas like computer science and engineering. Lets create a more inclusive gaming culture that is more welcoming and respectful for women. I'm all for that. Great idea Exhuminator.

[dsheinem]

Thanks for that, it helps a bit. I still want to know, though, if they're comparing like work. Just presenting an average salary doesn't help, because we don't know if they're senior programmers or just starting. Are the gaming industry numbers encapsulating the entirety of the industry, from video to audio to programming? And what's the breakdown of men vs. women there? Are there ancillary benefits that we're not counting?

Read through the whole pdf, most of your questions are answered.

[Sarge]

Read through the whole pdf, most of your questions are answered.

So they're not really breaking down the gender numbers into years of experience or controlling for other mitigating factors, it's an average per-category, although they do mention possible reasons for the gap, which is very good to do, and apparently the gap is smaller than that cited in society as a whole. It is interesting data, as far as it goes.

I'd love to see more women in the industry, we just have to figure out a way to get them there. But I'm guessing the surge of people working in the industry were dudes like us that love video games, and on average that was definitely a guy thing. I know our engineering program has tried to appeal to women for quite some time, and it's actually pretty balanced in most fields, but not in computer and electrical engineering.