Kickstarter "Tropes vs Women in Videogames"

[MrPopo]

Since Utah State University allows concealed guns on campus and would not ban them from this event, even after the threats, Sarkeesian cancelled.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/10/15/tech/utah ... index.html

Unfortunately, they couldn't. Utah has a concealed carry law that allows for concealed carry at public places, and the University campus and lecture hall count. And even if they did have a loophole that would allow them to keep someone with a firearm out, the chance of him just murdering a sorority or something (which was alluded to in the letter) means they still probably would have cancelled the event.

The real thing that sucks about this is it validates that behavior. I wouldn't be surprised if we saw more incidents like this.

[Ack]

I'm ok with the university not stopping conceal carry or possession on campus.

I had a friend who owned a firearm at Auburn University. He kept it under his bed, locked up where he could get it in an emergency if he absolutely needed it. When the university found out he had it, he lost his job with the campus, they forced him to attend counseling under threat of immediate expulsion if he missed a single session(and they suspended him for a semester and refused to refund the money he had paid), and they attempted to have him arrested and spent the next year threatening him with legal action.

I've never seen someone take so much abuse and harassment, simply because he owned a hunk of metal. He was mentally fit, a great student, and a senior when this happened. In the end it delayed his graduation by a year and forced him to go into debt to pay for his final year of college. He started struggling, ended up in a bad marriage to try to help Some folks can ruin a life with guns. And some can definitely ruin lives without.

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Anyway, if Ms. Sarkeesian did not feel safe, then she had every right to cancel.

I think this is a good time to consider what Feminism is, how varied it can be in interpretation, and what the stereotype for Feminism is. Unfortunately I believe the individuals who are criticizing Ms. Sarkeesian or participating in the GamersGate ordeal have a very limited view of what Feminism is or the ongoing arguments and struggles within it.

Feminism is not solely a group of angry women sitting around hating men. Yes, it should be noted, there is some of that, just as there are racist Republicans and Democrats, genocidal Muslims, communist death squads, etc. But they are not the mainstream, which is far more varied and interesting. Unfortunately the fringe is what we tend to focus on, and I've known several women that struggled with admitting they were Feminists because they did not want to be perceived as anti-men. But they are still Feminists and participating in a sometimes virulent argument about the role it plays in their lives, particularly with regards to sex.

I have several friends who are burlesque dancers and are considered very sex-positive. They are Feminists. They have varied backgrounds, have a wide range in size, shape, age, ethnicity, and sexual orientation. They do not fit the stereotype that is often assigned to Feminism, and we are doing women like them a disservice when we claim Feminism is simply 'X' or 'Y.' We're also doing Ms. Sarkeesian a disservice by seeing Feminism as some sort of black and white ideology, just as the same disservice can be (and to an extent is being)done to us by claiming all gamers hate women.

[Forlorn Drifter]

Another thing you see in feminism is that views on certain topics aren't all in line with each other. (As with most political or social movements) For example, when it comes to sexuality. Many promote women being as sexually expressive and open as they want, yet others promote the idea that women shouldn't be sexually expressive because it makes the women into a sex object for men, or intend to imply that following sexuality just conforms to the patriarchy.

You apply an idea such as this on games, and things can get skewed. I don't know Sarkeesian's views on this sort of thing, but she seems to be very much against sexualization of women in games. But I've seen some feminists argue with her views by saying it is wrong to say that the women can't be sexualized, or a character such as Bayonetta, who chooses her dress, is wrongly sexualized, seeing as she has control over what she wears and does.

[Erik_Twice]

I don't know Sarkeesian's views on this sort of thing, but she seems to be very much against sexualization of women in games. But I've seen some feminists argue with her views by saying it is wrong to say that the women can't be sexualized, or a character such as Bayonetta, who chooses her dress, is wrongly sexualized, seeing as she has control over what she wears and does.

She tweeted the other day that she was dissapointed that many critics "ignored or praised the sexual objectification and male gaze of Bayonetta". She also pulled down an old Bayonetta video she made before she got famous after many called her out on severe inacurrancies, IIRC.

Still, I think it's very clear that Sarkeesian is very second wavish and this leads to her views on sex. I'm not sure of her opinion on sex work but I wouldn't be surprised if she opposses it.

[dsheinem]

And on a side note, I can't believe she's been invited to give a speech at a university, her work sucks.

Her work resonates with people…it has translated some more academic forms of feminist criticism into videos for non-academic audiences and I have had students write about and cite her work (without any prompting or mention of her videos from me). All of these are good reasons to invite her to speak. I don't know what "sucks" about her work, given the medium and audience.

I generally stay out of this thread, but I'd echo JT's frustration, applaud Forlorn's astute observations, and share Ack's sentiments about feminism being far from monolithic.

I will add that I don't want guns on campus unless they are owned/carried by campus police. Guns and education need to stay far apart, as their possible presence in the classroom (concealed or not) introduces an uncomfortable dynamic that can stifle free thought and expression.

I have a lot of thoughts about all this stuff in Utah and GamerGate as a whole, but not the time or inclination to give them a proper airing at this point. I think that I may write something towards publication on the matter come Winter break...

[Key-Glyph]

I generally stay out of this thread, but I'd echo JT's frustration, applaud Forlorn's astute observations, and share Ack's sentiments about feminism being far from monolithic.

Agreed.

What particularly disgusts me about the shooting threat (if we can even pick specifics) is that the perpetrator implicated so many random civilians in it. Obviously you can't trust the words of a deranged individual as far as you can throw them, but if they'd threatened only Sarkeesian, or only an isolated venue of willing attendees, perhaps there could have been public sentiment in favor of attending despite the terrifying possibilities.

Again, I absolutely agree with Sarkeesian's decision. I just wish, somehow, that circumstances could align in a way that there could be some huge public stand against these threats, where a substantial group would send the clear message of, "Screw you, assholes, we're still holding our event/conference/assembly despite the danger and why don't you go cry about it."

And ZeroAX, I get that you think Sarkeesian's material is sub-par, but you have to realize that this issue and her involvement in it is way bigger than Tropes vs. Women in Videogames now. People make meaningful contributions to culture and society not just by producing material, but by sharing life experiences. She has now had an incredible amount of personal experience dealing with the ramifications (and then some) of the attitudes her videos were addressing; whether you like it or not, this woman is now a conduit for the greater issue that she stuck her toe into, and she sure as heck has worth as a speaker based on that qualification.

I often think of the old line, "Some are born great, some achieve greatness, and some have greatness thrust upon them." Sarkeesian is without a doubt categorized by the third statement. She has to keep scheduling talks, making videos, and being a visible figurehead, because anything less will be seen as forfeit. I am sure she would prefer her old life back, where she wasn't driven from her home or threatened with rape and bloody death for posting to YouTube and holding small lectures. But she perseveres. Because she realizes just how important it is that she does.

[ZeroAX]

DISCLAIMER. I HAVE NOT WATCHED ALL HER VIDEOS. IF IN SOME OF THE VIDEOS SHE TACKLES MY ISSUES WITH HER WORK, PLEASE LINK THEM TO ME AND I WOULD BE GLAD TO WATCH THEM AND BE PROVEN WRONG

...that being said....:

My problem with her is that she sees the problem from an exclusively American perspective, and I don't care for that. As I have mentioned before this is another boring "Democrats VS Republicans" (over political correctness to the point of getting in the way of a healthy debate VS we don't like change, sexism isn't bad, compare your lives to how it was 2 centuries ago) debate and while at first those were at least funny to me, now they are just boring.

She wants to make videos about the issue of women in video games? Fine, but face the root of the problem, nowhere near enough women in the gaming industry, meaning far less female programmers/executives/game designers than there should be.

The answer to that problem would be two-fold, one easy (sexism and lack of equal opportunities for women), and one pretty complex to discuss, WHY aren't there more female programmers/level designers? Gender roles? Is it maybe just a misconception? Is the "boy's club" attitude of the science turning women off? what can be done ot attrackt more women to following a computer science class?).

But she chose the VEEERY lazy option of just reading through TV-tropes used in games and saying they are bad. I'm sorry, but in general I dislike youtube celebrities for their lack of professionalism and how skin deep they dig into everything, and she takes something very close to me (as I am a programmer, and some of the best programmers I ever met are women and they really DO hate that the sexes aren't more equal in numbers in the business) and instead of doing the hard work and research required to give her work some academic merit, she just makes a web series that belongs on TGWTG instead of in a university hall.




Now the threats she receives? Those are disgusting and inexcusible and I admire her courage to keep going doing what she does. Those freaks have issues and simply put if it wasn't her, they'd be threatening someone else. And as a gamer I am definetly ashamed to see such behavior associated with the community, and I blame 100% the people making the threats.

We have free speech and everyone has the right to say whatever the fuck they want (though I for one am an opponent of political corectness since I believe people on the side of "good" should be able to present good arguments to put any "bad" person to shame, without having to resort to "just because it's bad".), but threatening someone is not free speech it's a fucking crime, no one should live with fear of them or their loved ones getting hurt.

[Forlorn Drifter]

In her videos, I do not think she has tackled the subject.

One of the bars to women entering the industry is the boys club attitude, which is a problem in studios themselves, though not all and definitely found less in the larger companies, due to the professionalism expected out of them. I haven't heard anything as of late on the subject, but I know there was quite a while there where women in the industry felt like objects due to the number of "fans" who would get creepy on them. Sometimes it was simply hitting on the female developers inappropriately, but some were sexually harassed or stalked. I think this presents another barrier to any potential female developers. The current influx of feminism, while trying to point out faults in gaming culture, has also brought out all of the slack jawed idiots, so all the threats and hatred going on right now aren't helping women feel welcomed in the industry.

[Key-Glyph]

All of that criticism is valid, ZeroAX -- seriously, my apologies if you thought I was arguing that. All I was taking issue with was the claim that she didn't have value as a lecturer because you question the thoroughness of her material.

My guess is that she spends quite a deal of time addressing the real-world backlash she's experiencing, and the broader points that addresses, which is arguably an even bigger issue at the moment.

I just wanted to make sure the concept of "X speaker who has lived through events and is here to talk about them" was supported as being as worthwhile a thing as "X speaker discussing their research and published material." All the surrounding controversy has made her into a mix of both, when perhaps even she herself was only hoping to be the latter.

[ZeroAX]

hm, ok I see what you mean. Yes I agree that she can do much more good by standing up to the people that threaten her than her videos ever could, cause honestly online bullying in the gaming community IS a huge deal. As I mentioned before most women or gay people can't even play a single online match on xbox live without being insulted and that's just fucked up.