Gypsy Split

[ZeroAX]

Huh? The part where Ben makes sense or the part Bill doesn't?

oh sorry, I originally was going to say that I just watched the intro. The part where Bill doesn't then.

[marurun]

To put a little light on this... The Roma populations in Europe are subject to some of the most racist policies and behaviors of any group of people, and they are among the poorest. Part of their trouble integrating is how strongly they value their particular family-based cultural values. But the racism they face is probably the biggest barrier. Who wants to integrate with a culture that professes to hate you, that reaches out with one hand (public assistance) but then slaps you with the other (constant discrimination and societal abuse), that says "We're giving you a chance to be one of us" but, from the perspective of the Roma, also mumbles "but only if you give up who you are."

Here are a couple web links to help put this in perspective.

http://www.scotsman.com/news/scotland/t ... -1-2306203

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home ... y.21835567

[dsheinem]

All your posts smack of xenophobic paranoia and misplaced, sweeping prejudice. I don't have first hand experience with this particular group/groups of immigrants, but the hateful rhetoric is more or less beat for beat the same as what we encounter from bigots in the U.S.

Dave, is it possible you are making sweeping arguments in this case?

No, I am making an argument about the parallel in the kinds of statements that are being lobbied against the two groups. That isn't a sweeping argument.

Also: Push brooms are better than whisk brooms in most contexts.

You would agree, I think, that Europe, particularly Western Europe is far more inclusive and accommodating than the US, yes?

No, not on everything and not to everyone.

Then you must ask yourself why quite literally every country in Europe has a problem with integrating their Roma populations and each article i've read, each news story i've seen, echoes Adam's view - they, as a WHOLE, DO NOT WANT to assimilate. We aren't just talking Hungary and Bulgaria - this is France, Italy, the UK, the Czech's.

Why should they have to assimilate? Why should that be a precondition for acceptance?

You say you've never experience them firsthand (most of us in the US have not) so i'd suggest a little leeway in education from our Euro friends whom have.

I don't think that one has to have first hand experience with a matter in order to critique it. It is one element of credibility, but not its limit.

It seems you'd like us to be sure to not assign attitudes or titles to an entire culture and I would almost always agree with you - however, in this case, it seems appropriate and doesn't need to be overthought. There are so very few cases of a Roma breaking free of the bonds and behaviors of this culture. I did find one, Marian, an 80 yo Roma from NE Romania. So, apply Adam's comments to All Roma except Marian.

The issue isn't in simply in "assigning attitudes or titles to an entire culture," it is that the attitudes and titles assigned and perpetuated are almost wholly negative and thus constitute a hostile climate for interaction from the start, regardless of the specific individuals involved. Long-curated attitudes and regularly stated positions of basically "fuck these asshole gypsies" starts to function as something of a self-fulfilling prophecy after a while...

[dsheinem]

To put a little light on this... The Roma populations in Europe are subject to some of the most racist policies and behaviors of any group of people, and they are among the poorest. Part of their trouble integrating is how strongly they value their particular family-based cultural values. But the racism they face is probably the biggest barrier. Who wants to integrate with a culture that professes to hate you, that reaches out with one hand (public assistance) but then slaps you with the other (constant discrimination and societal abuse), that says "We're giving you a chance to be one of us" but, from the perspective of the Roma, also mumbles "but only if you give up who you are."

well stated!

[dsheinem]

That video is shita...

Huh? The part where Ben makes sense or the part Bill doesn't?

Ben summed it up when he said "You don't blame the Philippians".

Racism is stupid.

Ben and Bill both had a point and were largely talking past each other..

In short -

Bill: Liberals need to acknowledge that there's these bad ideas that many people who follow Islam agree with because they are in the Koran.

Ben: Very few people in Islamic countries are terrorists! Stop denigrating all of them and being racist!

Then they started trying to get down to polls and statistics on specific issues and recognized that the medium of TV wasn't really a good avenue for a complex discussion of the topic.

[ZeroAX]

No-one is asking them to change who they are. We are asking them to stop stealing. Theft is endemic amongst the Roma gypsy community

Oh you mean the poor and discriminated against end up rejecting the society that won't accept them and they start living outside its rules? Yes I'm sure it is something exclusive to roma.

Why should they have to assimilate? Why should that be a precondition for acceptance?

Depends. I would like to see the roma integrate into society but not necessarily assimilate, because they are a local population with nowhere to go and the civilized thing to do is respect their culture and try to help them understand the social norms better.

[MrPopo]

There is no logical reason why they would be barefooted unless it is for begging reasons.

Hate shoes? I'd go barefoot all the time if I could, but I don't yet have the callouses necessary to walk on concrete for long periods and the general societal policy of "no shirt, no shoes, no service" means it's not worth trying to build up those callouses.

[Hobie-wan]

There is no logical reason why they would be barefooted unless it is for begging reasons.

Hate shoes? I'd go barefoot all the time if I could, but I don't yet have the callouses necessary to walk on concrete for long periods and the general societal policy of "no shirt, no shoes, no service" means it's not worth trying to build up those callouses.

Fuck the hobbits!

I actually go barefoot a lot too.

[Gunstar Green]

No-one is asking them to change who they are. We are asking them to stop stealing. Theft is endemic amongst the Roma gypsy community.

You could insert pretty much any oppressed and poverty stricken racial or ethnic minority into these sentences.

I can understand the frustration but it's not a Roma problem. It's a societal problem that most countries struggle with in one form or another.

[ZeroAX]

You could insert pretty much any oppressed and poverty stricken racial or ethnic minority into these sentences.

The thing that I have noticed is that sometimes people use their defense of a certain minority to offset their hatred of another and usually it's different from country to country.