Gypsy Split

[ZeroAX]

We are doing everything we can, and they are the ones who spit on our faces and tell us to accept their antics. Our social workers and teachers are doing everything they can, but still we cannot get them to integrate.

They moved in, we accepted them as we would had done with anyone else, then people's opinions change due to the sudden increase in crime and nonsense on their part. It is all about impressions.

So what do we do? Personally, I want them deported and then they can apply to re-enter, and each case should be handled individually.

Deported to WHERE? You do understand that roma are not immigrants but they are local populations, right?

[ZeroAX]

The last port of entry. France. Or whatever nationality they hold.

/facepalm

I think that boat is already full with Poles, Bulgarians and Romanians

A good article on the success of Spain integrating its roma population

http://content.time.com/time/world/arti ... 16,00.html

Though I'm pretty sure the Catalans are also complaining about money going into these programs.

[ZeroAX]

We need Polish, Bulgarian and Romanian workers. Anyone is welcome if they can contribute, or if they need a safe haven. We can take in whoever we can handle.

The Catalans are also complaining? Is that a small hint of bundling Scotland and Catalonia together as nationalists?

40,000 inhabitants of an illegal settlement on the outskirts of the Spanish capital.

There's one of your problems right there.

Yes it's about nationalism. What's the difference between a useless Scotish/Catalonian person and a useless roma person? Why should they get benefits based on their nationality?

I'm Greek. I want my tax money to help all poor people in the country, not just Greeks. Why should an immigrant not get food, but a useless Greek who didn't pay his taxes get free healthcare? Why should I feel extra compassion for the Greek person? We come from the same country, while the immigrant was born elsewhere....so? The useless Greek never did anything for me. I can either say "fuck you all" and demand zero state benefits and not pay taxes, or pay my taxes and demand they are spent to make society better over all, not just the people who are "like me"

[ZeroAX]

A useless Scot is our useless Scot. Our own problem.

oh so being useless is excused as long as you have the same skin/religion/language?

This manages to go both against capitalism (everyone is treated according to their own self worth and nothing else) and communism (everyone is treated equally regardless of who they are.....well in theory, let's not get into how badly it failed).

hm.....I wonder which kind of -ism describes what you want, treating badly people who are different and providing benefits exclusively to people of the population that's the majority.....hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

[ZeroAX]

But the subject isn't about useless Scottish people, is it? It is a totally different topic.

And do you see the Scottish police or the general public chasing Roma gypsies out? We are merely complaining.

Roma gypsies rob an apartment owner. Apartment owner complains. Police warns neighbourhood to expect a rise in crime associated with Roma gypsies. And we are the ones who are mistreating Roma gypsies?

Well I'm talking from experience. All the Greek people who are supporting golden eggs (insulting way to say golden dawn, since the Greek words for eggs and dawn are very similar), are the same who were complaining before the crisis about everything from immigrants to gay people. Heck even Albanian immigrants joined golden eggs, cause they hate middle eastern immigrants. Even when they didn't have an economic excuse, they already hated everyone who was different.

People don't change. You can either be like me (hate all individual humans the same, regardless of origins/religion/color) and demand that each and every member of society pulls their own weight, or you can be nice and demand that all people are treated nicely and equally. Any other view is just an excuse for disguised racism.

[ZeroAX]

The roma are nomad people. You have to understand they don't see the world like we do. You've been to China right? Cause your wife is Chinese from what I remember. I know from personal experience that cultures can be very different. I came out as very rude to my Asian friends cause I was telling stories about something funny that happened to them to the rest of our friends, and on the other hand they were being very rude cause when they saw something wrong with your physical appearance they thought it was 100% normal to point it out (telling a girl in her face that she is ugly, or a fat guy that he has a woman's boobs).

We could have either gotten in a fight, or been patient and try to short these things out. The roma are just an extreme case of this....but we can't give up. As I said they are a problem with only 2 solutions: either go full hitler again and put them in gas chambers, or spend a lot of money, effort and patience to integrate them.

They live on the fringe of society and all over Europe most people just case about them being put in a place where no one can see them. That is not solving the problem AND making it worse at the same time.

And poverty pushing someone towards crime is hardly a "roma phenomenon". I understand most people think it would take too much effort to integrate them, but what other option do we have? The gas chambers?


EDIT

And I just wanted to add a personal story:
Last November-December I was volunteering in schools in the Czech Republic. I spent one week teaching in a school full of roma kids. And it was depressing. Everyone from the "teachers" to the students of the NGO that organized this volunteer program (which is supposed to promote cultural understanding and reject racism mind you) was talking horribly about these kids. I can't get it out of my mind how many times they (specially the teachers) said "this is the school with the most roma kids in the czech republic. only 10% of our students are czech"................so apparently, the roma kids, who's families have been living in the Czech Republic for centuries, are not "Czech" in the eyes of the teachers and racist NGO members.

Then we start the classes and we notice something very weird. The younger kids (11-12) spoke English way better than the older kids (13-17). Mind you all the kids were nice to us and very excited, but it was much easier for us to discuss with the younger ones. So we asked the gym teacher and she told us that the English teacher in charge of the classes from 6-11 years old was a young man who was "very good" at teaching them English.

You see he actually gave a fuck and treated the roma kids like he would any kids. But the older English teacher considered them too "lazy" and "stupid" and "non-Czech" to try.

I know the kids are hard to teach to, cause I did and it was depressing as fuck that when you asked them what they want to be when they grow up they all answered "football player, car mechanic, barman, super market assistant, hair dresser " ect. They had no dreams cause their society (and probably families too) destroyed those dreams before those kids could even try.


But the ONE teacher who fucking tried, he got FUCKING RESULTS. Those 11 year old kids could speak English well enough to talk to us. And you know what? For "how difficult" roma kids are, they were just and just as polite to me as most of the other czech kids I met, and imo even more excited to be talking to us than the rest too.

So (no offense to you, this goes to the bad English teacher) FUCK YOU to anyone who thinks they can think less of someone just because of where they come from or the way they look. If you want to think less of someone because he is lazy, or stupid, or a thief, or a liar, you have EVERY right....but you must judge him for who he is, not who his parents are or what his genes are.

[Erik_Twice]

A good article on the success of Spain integrating its roma population

http://content.time.com/time/world/arti ... 16,00.html

Living here, I wouldn't call it a "success". Most of the measures the article praises have oscillated between complete failures and phyrric victories, any progress on the subject has been incredibly slow.

The two big differences between Spain and other countries is that gypsies are thought to be as Spanish as anyone else (Nationally, if not culturally) and that despite catastrophic failures, the Goverment is still trying to get things to change. Spanish gypsies are also not as nomadic as they are in other countries.

And even if I don't subscribe to the fear and scaremonging that surrounds them, it's true that gypsy society is pretty fucked up and it results in a difficulty to integrate. The illiteracy rate in gypsy communities is insane (Which no other racial minority suffers from as much), much higher than what was noted in the article and it's even higher amongst women. Crime rates are through the roof and gypsy culture is drenched in enough homophobia, racism and misogyny that an understanding with the rest of society just isn't possible.

I think this last part is important because there's a very ugly tendence to ignore the bigotry found in many communities, like it happens with feminism and Islam. Accepting gypsies will require their culture to change, even if it's for the better.

[ZeroAX]

I don't feel comfortable talking about gas chambers. Coming from a nation that helped fight and crush Nazism, I don't believe it is an appropriate topic to bring up in a conversation about immigration.

No-one suggested that.

You see the problem with WW2 is that it seems that only the Germans learned a lesson from it.

Ok you don't want to gas them, good I don't want that either. What other solutions are there? hm......integrate them?

@Erik_Twice

And southern European cultures used to be misogynist and homophobic till people got rich enough to be able to start getting educated. Actually it is the same for all people, that's why everyone is saying that our strongest weapon against terrorism is education for the middle east (which is why boko haram kidnapped those female students. cause educated women is what they fear the most, even more than western bombs)

[TSTR]

Why is this crap not in the politics thread?

[ZeroAX]

Do we really want a thread titled roma gypsies to come up when someone is looking up racketboy? :S