What are you playing?

[Retrogamer0001]

I wonder why you plan to finish it. There must be something, deep down in there, that you secretly enjoy? Masochist?

Anyways I'm done talking about XIII forever around here. People hate me when I hate on it, people hate me when I try to defend some elements. I'd give it a 5/10, I hate a lot about it but it was okay enough that I can look back fondly on a few elements. I've seen worse. Oh well. Good riddance.

I don't hate anyone, especially someone who simply has a different opinion than I do. I just don't think the game is defendable. I like the graphics and some of the music, but that's it. The game has no substance. I'm slogging through it because the end is in sight and I just want to finish it. No point putting 30+ hours into a game and then abandoning it when you're at the finish line.

[Sload Soap]

I don't hate you either, Xeo obviously. It just seemed like you were being dismissive of everything I wrote because I didn't beat the game.

Personally I'm of the opinion that it's not imperative to complete a game to form an opinion on it. It's fairly rare that I don't finish a game I start and so I feel that alone is reason enough to articulate my issues with FFXIII.

Putting that aside and getting back on topic I started up Justice League Heroes on the PS2. It's like X-Men Legends but with JLA members except there are only two playable characters at a time and you don't get to choose who they are. Weirdly, it has the JL cartoons line up (with Zatanna in for Hawkgirl) but is more in line with the comics in art style and tone. It's okay so far. Batman sucks though.

[Nintendork666]

I just started a file in Skyrim... HOLY CRAP. There's so much detail, and open-ended exploration, etc. that I'm nearly overwhelmed by how real this all feels. It's like an interactive episode of Game of Thrones. I can't believe it took me this long to check this game out.

[Retrogamer0001]

I just started a file in Skyrim... HOLY CRAP. There's so much detail, and open-ended exploration, etc. that I'm nearly overwhelmed by how real this all feels. It's like an interactive episode of Game of Thrones. I can't believe it took me this long to check this game out.

I really dig the music in that game, especially when you find a new ability from those weird stones.

[marurun]

I just started a file in Skyrim... HOLY CRAP. There's so much detail, and open-ended exploration, etc. that I'm nearly overwhelmed by how real this all feels. It's like an interactive episode of Game of Thrones. I can't believe it took me this long to check this game out.

You know, I could gripe and complain about Skyrim for days, just absolutely for days. There are so many things about the game that just drive me bonkers. However... Steam tells me I've played 358 hours worth of Skyrim, so I'd be lying if I didn't say it was addictive and had a lot of good qualities as well : )

[dunpeal2064]

But the battle system isn't the summation of a RPG's gameplay so why should anyone address it and it alone as if it validates the entire experience?

So, I obviously was out for the day and unable to partake of this lovely conversation (Sorry Xeo!), but this is one point that I really want to address.

When did I try to validate the entire game? Look back through this thread; When did I even say it was good?

Its a very strange thing amongst RPG fans that any discussion of the game has to be in a "Its factually good or bad and I must prove something" sort of way. You know shmup players discuss bad shmups because they have interesting mechanics? Beat em Up players will still discuss any game in the genre without resulting in this weird feud. Same with music rhythm, platformers, etc.

But, for some reason, it is nearly impossible to discuss this game. If you haven't even been to the point in the game to experience what I am talking about, that is fair, and I don't hold that against you, but the responses still came off as "Stop talking about a game no one likes please", or "No dude you are SOOO wrong for liking that game", which are both honestly pathetic ways to approach a perfectly adult conversation about a mechanic in a game.

I feel you Xeo, it is a silly thing how discussion of this game goes, and I'm sorry I wasn't here to have a civil conversation about the game with you. It is upsetting, like trying to say something only to have someone stomp their feet screaming "No no NO NO STOP". Blows my mind. If you are ever interested in discussing the game, either its merits or its failures, I am highly interested in holding that conversation.

But yeah, this whole "No you can't even defends the game" thing is BS, especially when we see plenty of people play through plenty of "bad" games all the time, and never attempt to factually claim that they are being pandered to, that they as a fanbase have been had, that they have terrible taste, etc. Its specifically this game that has people so unbelievably upset (As if, all these years later no one ever heard the game was disappointing to like, 99% of people that played it) that they start spewing blanket, "factual" statements and can't even fathom that what they are putting forth is just their opinion. Honestly, that is how these conversations feel.

So yeah, for the good of the random threads that these conversations plop up in, I will also refuse the urge to discuss this game any further. I'll go back to the genres who's players aren't so angry about their games

[Retrogamer0001]

Thanks for the self-righteous response. Regardless of what tone you interpreted my posts to be in, I am neither angry nor hateful towards anyone with an opinion that differs from mine. Most of us post on forums like this for discussion and to see the different perspectives that people bring to the table regarding things like this. I said everything I had to say about the game already, and I didn't plan on posting again on the same topic, so it's as done for me and as it is for you.

However, to say that certain fans of certain genres of certain games are more reasonable than fans of RPGs, I have to say that's a real load of crap. I know tons of fanatical nerds (like us) that argue constantly about characters in fighting games being overpowered, underpowered, cheesy, etc. The FPS group is one of the most violent I've come across online, spewing hatred and racial remarks at everyone for something as simple as "camping".

The reason, I think, that people get so upset with this game is because it seems like such a downgrade, such a poor simplification of a series that used to be fantastic. Where is the complexity? Where is the exploration? Where are the side-quests? Where are the hidden items, characters, summons? Where is everything that should be included in a Final Fantasy game? Can you honestly tell me that you think this game stacks up even marginally to other games in the series? If you can, then I don't know what to tell you. It has been nothing but a disappointment to me, and a reminder that the Square console RPG is probably dead and gone, which I think is a shame.

Anyway, that's all I'll say on the matter, time to move on to (much) better games.

[dunpeal2064]

Actually, Eff it, since you address me directly and make assumptions, I'll go ahead and give this one a response.

What games in the series were better than XIII? ALL of them. Hell, Mystic Quest was better than this game.

WHY? WHY, WHY, Fucking WHYYYYY. If you can't explain why, then don't even post garbage like this. This is just troll fodder, bottom-tier nonsense. Mystic Quest is a better game? Please. Come back when you are less angry at the game so you can discuss it without the blood flowing out of your eyes, because you are just saying wild shit. Oh, and not following it up with any solid reasoning, yet again. What made Mystic Quest better than XIII? (As in, what made Mystic Quest good? Don't just continue to slog on XIII as if that explains it all; It doesn't.) I would fathom a guess that you haven't even played every FF game.

Dunpeal, you seem to like this game because it doesn't offer a chance to "break it" until after the game is already over. That's fair, but "breaking" a Final Fantasy game isn't exactly easy

Okay, two points I am going to touch on here

1. No. You're assumption is wrong, and that you are assuming I liked the game overall just proves that we cannot discuss merits of this game without resorting to a "whos right whos wrong, who likes it who doesn't" thing, which is BS. You are trying to lock this conversation into a logical fallacy, whre I see much more than black and white in my video games.

2. Lets take blanket statements aside, and actually compare XIII's combat system to a game. You said the older ones are easier to break (Wrong!), so lets take VIII for example. Which way to you want to destroy the structure of the game and remove any required decision for the entirety of the game? How about we drop Zell to low health and chain his limit for 40 attacks in a row (yep, super easy) on every enemy in the game (It will kill almost anything, and you can do it, every fight, with no cost). How about we take Quistis and teach her Degenerator. Oh, look, every single non-boss enemy dies in one hit, and you can learn this at the beginning of the game. No thinking. They could just be balls of tofu, wouldn't matter. Lets take Diablo, and plop on "No Encounter", and walk around the world map drawing magic with no difficulty and no decision making until we have max stats at level 20.

By the way, you can do most of this stuff within the first few hours of the game, and I figured it out as a kid that had only played Pokémon, Super Mario RPG, and FFVII prior to this.

But, lets not mistake an unbreakable combat system for a well-designed one. I challenge you to take any game in the series and show me why its battle system is any more sophisticated than Chrono Trigger. What decisions do you make in VII, in combat? You don't have to make any. You spam... anything, and there is no drawback. You could just ride summons through the whole game. IX... is basically the same thing. What decisions do you have to make? X? Heals, attack. VI? Heals, attack. Oh, and guess what? YOU HAVE NO CONTROL OVER THESE CHARACTERS. To complain about this in a turn-based game is honestly beyond me, but to isolate the complaint to XIII is wild. You have complete control over your characters, just don't use auto-attack if you don't want to, you can pick everything like you normally do.

The combat system sucks hard in XIII because you lack control over your party's actions. You make fewer decisions in this game than in any other Final Fantasy and are rewarded less for it.

Do you seriously mean combat decisions? Maybe you over-played the older FF games, but they seriously require no thinking. Like, please pick a specific game if you believe this to be true so we can discuss further, while actually having a ground to stand on. As of now, you are just tossing statements around that mean nothing.

We are heading in the right direction though! This is worlds better than the last convo we tried to have, since we are at least sort of talking about something.

And, since I feel it needs to be said, y'all know I love ya

Thanks for the self-righteous response.

Not self-righteous, I am being honest with you guys about how these discussions make me feel. Do you think there has been a window to openly discuss mechanics of the game at this point in the thread? I do not.

However, to say that certain fans of certain genres of certain games are more reasonable than fans of RPGs, I have to say that's a real load of crap. I know tons of fanatical nerds (like us) that argue constantly about characters in fighting games being overpowered, underpowered, cheesy, etc. The FPS group is one of the most violent I've come across online, spewing hatred and racial remarks at everyone for something as simple as "camping".

There is an obvious difference here in that those are competitive games, and they are complaining about human characters or game mechanics that are bad for the competitive scene of the game.

No, if I posted that I liked a CoD game's campaign, I would almost guarantee the backlash would not be as harsh. And I still stand on the grounds that I do not see people get so heated about single player games as I do RPGs, and this game in particular.

Where is everything that should be included in a Final Fantasy game? Can you honestly tell me that you think this game stacks up even marginally to other games in the series? If you can, then I don't know what to tell you. It has been nothing but a disappointment to me, and a reminder that the Square console RPG is probably dead and gone, which I think is a shame.

Ah, see, I don't think anything should have to be included in a FF game, in fact that is why I adore them in the first place, they are willing to push things into a new, interesting direction (Usually while breaking their own games).

Do I think XIII stacks up against the entirety of the series, combined? No, but what game does? (inb4 "VI"). Why do I have to compare it to every FF? Why am I the only one even referencing the older games? No one has even touched on a single mechanic of the older games, just holding them up on a pedestal.

Yes, XIII fails in some areas. Exploration is weak (But, woah, they didn't design the game around exploration, same with X and X-2, and that is okay with me, plenty of world maps to traverse in the JRPG universe), Side Quests are weak (except they just stack them all at the end of the game like pretty much every FF except VIII and XII. Again, many FF games failed in this aspect, VI and VII included if you don't count end-game).

Looks like you are done discussing though, that's fine. Didn't mean to offend, and I don't think I've even said anything offensive, but to each their own.

[Retrogamer0001]

WHY? WHY, WHY, Fucking WHYYYYY. If you can't explain why, then don't even post garbage like this. This is just troll fodder, bottom-tier nonsense. Mystic Quest is a better game? Please. Come back when you are less angry at the game so you can discuss it without the blood flowing out of your eyes, because you are just saying wild shit. Oh, and not following it up with any solid reasoning, yet again. What made Mystic Quest better than XIII? (As in, what made Mystic Quest good? Don't just continue to slog on XIII as if that explains it all; It doesn't.) I would fathom a guess that you haven't even played every FF game.

To be fair, you're the one who seems extremely agitated, not me. I see you're gonna make me write an essay though, so let's at least try to make nice.

First of all, Mystic Quest is a pretty shitty Final Fantasy game, but I would still rather play it than XIII any day of the week.

1) Audience: Mystic Quest is generally considered to be a "beginner" RPG, and was actually not bad at fulfilling this role between the much better, more traditional FFII and FFIII. It was aimed at people who were looking for something less complex or who were unfamiliar with the RPG genre, almost like a primer for the numbered games. Arguably, it succeeded, though hardcore fans of the series were disappointed with the simplicity.

Final Fantasy XIII was a blockbuster title upon release and was hyped to the extreme. It was a numbered entry in the series and after the success of XII, expectations were rightfully high. Square aimed this directly at both mainstream and hardcore audiences, but didn't (from all the hatred this games receives to this day) deliver. The reason you can't talk to people about this game without getting lots of negative, passionate feedback is because it disappointed on both fronts, mainstream and hardcore.

2) Exploration: As limited as exploration was in Mystic Quest, it existed, there were large maps to explore, hidden chests that required more than going five steps off the beaten path, there were towns and places to visit. It felt like the game had a world.

Final Fantasy XIII does not offer any kind of exploration throughout the main game - even upon arriving at Gran Pulse for the first time, there is only a very large field with one exit near the bottom of the map. The vast majority of the rest of the game exists only as The Tube - maps with one direction to travel in, exempting a very few areas (the tower at the end with the elevators actually felt like playing a real Final Fantasy game...at 28 hours in).

3) Combat: I prefer the combat in Mystic Quest for two reasons - each fight isn't incredibly long and boring, and I have complete control over both my characters. Attack, Spell, Item, Defense - I can do what I want with either one. Control is the word here over each member of the party (if two members are a party...).

XIII is the opposite - you have control over your main character, and the other two characters are relegated to performing general tasks according to their class. I can't control what they cast or when they cast it. If I want Vanille to cast DeProtect right away, tough luck. I have to either get lucky and she casts it first, or I have to wait until she casts three other spells and then eventually gets around to it. That's the opposite of control.

No point comparing music or graphics, as I think XIII has stunning graphics and a great OST (Mystic Quest does too, actually). Story is hit or miss, I personally really enjoy the simplicity in MQ over the convoluted one in XIII. I'm working a night shift right now, so I can't write five different essays at the moment, but I'll get back to your other points of discussion later.

[dunpeal2064]

Thank you for that response, Retro. I genuinely mean that.

First, yes, I am a little upset, but not at the game, or even the notion that it is bad, or the worst RPG ever made, or any of that. What is upsetting, to me, is any attempt to quiet discussion, even of a bad game, because there are things to gleam from this. Now, if you and Sload were the only two people knocking the game, and good discussion was being had, no big deal, but this is literally the best I get with this game. Its practically a crime to like such a bad game, even though I like plenty of bad games that do even less interesting things than this one. Your most recent response has me smiling though, since now we are actually talking about something.

You'd rather play Mystic Quest. Totally fair. There are games I would rather play over any game in the FF series, as much as I love them. I don't think I'd like to play Mystic Quest again though, it was pretty rough, and I had a hard time finding any enjoyment beyond "its interesting that they designed this as a beginner game"


Audience - Okay, please don't take this in a dismissive way, but I do not perceive intended audience whatsoever when playing a game, nor do I perceive its hype, or anything outside of the game. I am in the game, and when I compare Mystic Quest to XIII, I compare them on even grounds. So, I don't think we are viewing these games under the same light, which makes comparing them quite difficult.

I would be interested to compare XIII to another full FF game, as I think these comparisons would be easier to make. With Mystic Quest... there isn't much to talk about. The game really didn't do anything remarkable that I can recall, aside having a kinda cool last boss that fell over. Any comparisons I could make with Mystic would come off as overly harsh.

... the amount of people that like the game, to me, is irrelevant to discussion of the game itself. I'm not making a stance that the game is good, popular, or anything of the sort. I do indeed think it took the turn-based combat system in an interesting direction. That direction was flawed, but it is still interesting, at least I think it would be to anyone who has tired of the old "pick Attack, Magic, Item from a menu" style JRPG.


Exploration - Again, this is a subject of expectation. Complaining about the exploration in XIII is like complaining that there are no shmup sections in FF VII... there weren't meant to be. The game isn't trying to offer you an exploration-based experience, and neither did FFX. If you prefer RPGs that have exploration, I'm surprised FF is your go-to, because I always found exploration in FF games to be very weak compared to Elder Scrolls, Kings Field, Souls, etc. Shadow Hearts, Nocturne, and Persona are all top-notch in my book, and have no exploration.

I do not think a FF game HAS to have this, but if you do, then again, there is no discussion to have here. But, again, I wasn't asking what you thought of the exploration, or why you didn't like the game overall. I simply wanted to discuss a point that I found intereting in the game, which is its combat system. I personally liked the straightforward approach, but this Is entirely up to personal taste.

Combat - Okay, here is a big point that I don't think is being touched on - Difficulty. Mystic Quest, and pretty much the entire FF series, has no difficulty. None. Even the superbosses are a joke. I'm not sure if this is a point you agree on or not?

Again, in XIII you can control every character just as you would in a normal JRPG, it was XII that has you lacking control over two characters (it was also XII that let you give complete control to the game if you like, to the extent that you could defeat Yiazmat without touching the controller). Each character in XIII has Auto-Battle, and under that the normal list of options for an RPG. Is my memory really bad, is this not true?

And, yet again I'm not sure what decisions you have to make in an RPG? Perhaps we play RPGs very differently. I am trying to beat the game, beat the tar out of it, but I am not interested in going beyond that, because so often a game's challenge is so minute in the first place that even slightly abusing its system breaks it. For me personally, there were no combat decisions to make in VII, and in VIII the only decision was what one-hit kill to use. IX had even less going on than VIII, and in X, by the time the game gets challenging, you use Quick Hit and Auto-Life, and that's it.

XIII may have less of an out-of-combat system going on, but what I find interesting is that, if you don't make the right decision, you die. You don't Sentinal in the right spot, you die. You don't time your heals right, you die. You don't stagger properly and the fights take too long, and you run out of steam and die. Yes, there are only about 5 options you have to swap through... but again, this feels about on par for a FF game, I can't think of a single fight where I had to choose from 6 or more possible options. Yes, in most FF games I COULD choose from more options, but none of them were necessary. XIII is streamlined, you need everything available to you.

The game feels fast in its movement between these things, and I had to be on the edge of my seat for some bosses that weren't even superbosses, just story bosses.



My initial point of discussion is just the combat system. If you are interested in discussing it, I think our discussion would be more fluid and take up less forum space if we isolate this one topic and discuss it in comparison to the older games. I'd be curious to hear what some of your favorite FF moments are, combat-wise, what some of yur favorite bosses are, and why what you are doing in those fights trumps what XIII attempts to do.

... this might need a split, sorry