How do people live without medical insurance?

[pepharytheworm]

I do pay for insurance, but sometimes I wish I didn't. Insurance companies treat patients like garbage, make me wait weeks and sometimes months to get an appointment and have shitty coverage.

I sometimes flirt with the idea of going back to paying for what medical services I need. A few years back I used to do that and it worked fine. And I got better care because I paid the physicians right away instead of giving my money to a middleman who would then pay peanuts to doctors.

But, well, I always have that what if thinking that I might need a super expensive incredible treatment... so I put up with this shitty service.

Well, I know my opinion doesn't count for much around here since I live in a poor country and my circumstances are unlike most of yours, but it's just my 2 cents.

Your opinion counts just as much as anyone elses. Many people from the US go through the same exact circumstances you just described. I would be interested in hearing more as I am not familiar with healthcare in Brazil.

[jp1]

Well, I know my opinion doesn't count for much around here since I live in a poor country and my circumstances are unlike most of yours, but it's just my 2 cents.

Why on earth would you think that means your opinion doesn't count? It is just as valid as that of anyone else.

[Ack]

"Don't want more immigrants because people might become more prejudice" already sounds prejudice. If there is an influx of immigrants then obviously they are doing something right and maybe the problem isn't that they offer good healthcare but that other countries don't. Don't you want to live in a desirable country? Or do you want to live in an undesirable country so we have less immigrants?

But the fact of the matter is what we have is terrible.

I'm sorry, but I'm coming back to this because your accusation pissed me off. In particular this:

"Don't want more immigrants because people might become more prejudice" already sounds prejudice.

You are accusing me of prejudice because I happen to point out that other nations with universal healthcare systems have experienced immigration increases from poorer nations, leading to racial tensions, violence, and a stressed social services system experiencing long wait periods and supply problems.

First, I find individuals quick to insinuate prejudice are in fact prejudiced themselves.

Second, this is the reality with immigration in countries like England and Sweden.

Third, I have advocated a combination of public and private options, public so the general person can have access to healthcare, private to allow the easing of stress on the public option to help combat the problems that we see both in other nations and our own with regard to social services and immigration. We are already seeing increases in immigration from Central America as people flee nations like El Salvador and Guatemala to come here.

Fourth, there are obvious reasons for trepidation for adoption of a universal healthcare system. Yes, there are concerns over economic loss and potential job loss for the healthcare, pharmaceuticals, and insurance providers. And yes, there is concern that the quality of services provided to individuals who already possess healthcare will decrease, particularly for those currently fighting potentially lethal diseases and disorders. There is also a general fear of the quality of healthcare that can be provided and the willingness for future generations to enter the medical profession if we take a government-sponsored approach(we are already seeing a doctor shortage). But most importantly, you should consider the experiences that the United States has had with government-sponsored healthcare: Medicare, Medicaid, and the VA healthcare system.

If the recent behavior of the VA is any indication of what an universal healthcare system designed by our government is going to be like, do you really want to subject yourself to that?

If there is an influx of immigrants then obviously they are doing something right and maybe the problem isn't that they offer good healthcare but that other countries don't.

Now time for me to make an insinuation. Are you suggesting that we ought to invade other countries and forcibly change their governments under the barrel of a gun to shape their social services in such a way that immigration will no longer occur? Is nation building what you suggest to fix such an issue while we change our social welfare system? Because reading into your comment, I can see that line of thinking in your accusations. I have already pointed out that prejudiced people claim others are prejudiced, which you backhandedly accused me of. I am going to assume your prejudice is based on ideology, because that makes the most sense to me. So I suppose I will have to lay out some truth to you to break into your prejudiced, locked mind.

Do you see how rude that was?

I don't have an issue with the idea of universal healthcare(it's a wonderful idea, I just don't think it's as realistic as you do). None of the guys who are arguing against it think it's a terrible ideal to desire. We just don't believe it's so easily workable, and we worry that if we do implement it, the long term problems will outweigh the gains. This is why we struggle to support such notions, because we are trying to take a realistic approach to it. Others in this thread who have argued for it have also been trying to take a realistic approach and point out the positives and how it will likely be better than our admittedly problematic current system.

Also, I do not appreciate your accusations and insults, nor will I tolerate them. Such a method of speaking implies that you have little else to say beyond childish insults just because someone disagrees with you. But I am very worried that this is becoming a recurring pattern of behavior.

[marurun]

And with that, let's all please remember that this thread is about an issue, not about the participants. Let's keep on the issue, and not start moving into ad hominem territory.

Also, it's my fucking birthday, so I can ask you all to be nice and you have to do it ; )

[samsonlonghair]

Well, I know my opinion doesn't count for much around here since I live in a poor country and my circumstances are unlike most of yours, but it's just my 2 cents.

Sorry to go off topic, but this statement strikes me as odd. Based on gross domestic product, Brazil is one of the top ten richest countries on earth. Brazil is the second richest country in the western hemisphere. source

I have heard anecdotal stories that the gap between rich and poor is very great in Brazil, but I think this is also true in the United States. What am I missing here? Is there more to the story I don't know?

[jfrost]

I do pay for insurance, but sometimes I wish I didn't. Insurance companies treat patients like garbage, make me wait weeks and sometimes months to get an appointment and have shitty coverage.

I sometimes flirt with the idea of going back to paying for what medical services I need. A few years back I used to do that and it worked fine. And I got better care because I paid the physicians right away instead of giving my money to a middleman who would then pay peanuts to doctors.

But, well, I always have that what if thinking that I might need a super expensive incredible treatment... so I put up with this shitty service.

Well, I know my opinion doesn't count for much around here since I live in a poor country and my circumstances are unlike most of yours, but it's just my 2 cents.

Your opinion counts just as much as anyone elses. Many people from the US go through the same exact circumstances you just described. I would be interested in hearing more as I am not familiar with healthcare in Brazil.

Brazil has had universal government-funded health care since 1988, when the new constitution post-military dictatorship (1964-1985) was put into effect.

The system doesn't work at all. Most hospitals are underfunded, understaffed and overcrowded with patients.

I don't want it to make it seem like this a typical complaint about hospitals in general. In most of them, care is nonexistent. This is a recent picture of the emergency from the largest public hospital in the Brazilian Northeast (Hospital da Restauração, located where I live, state of Pernambuco):

I got two stories that should shed light on how bad the system really is. A few years back, my mother (who was 66-67 years old at the time) fell on the sidewalk in front of my house and broke her arm. She has lived without insurance for many years now due to many circumstances (due to her age, mostly, I can't afford to pay for her insurance) and we had to look for a public hospital to get care.

I went to at least five hospitals in Recife (capital of Pernambuco) and their doctors were all on strike. I asked them if they could provide us with an ambulance to take her to a place where there would be doctors too, but they were also on strike. So we had to to go to a hospital in a nearby city by cab (25 miles or something like that) to get her to an orthopedic emergency. And then I had to fight my way inside the hospital and get a form for her to be admitted. Hours later she was able to get an x-ray, medication and bandages, and we took a bus back home.

This other time she had appendicitis. We didn't know it at the time, so I took her to a hospital to get it diagnosed. So mom was admitted and she basically waited for 12 hours in the emergency hallway so that she would talk to a doctor. She was also not allowed to eat or drink, because there was a suspicion of uninary infection. It was a very unlucky moment, because I had just extracted my wisdom teeth and could not stay at cesspool of disease such our hospitals, so I just waited for a long time on the outside... until my patience ran out and I stormed in the hospital again and demanded I talked to a doctor. Asshole doctor asked me who I was asking about and said that it was nothing but a harmless urinary tract infection, so I could take mom home, no problem.

I did take her home. And at 4 AM she started wincing in pain. So I called an aunt of mine to take her to a private physician with her health insurance card. They could pretend my mom was just tagging along for an appointment. When the doctor saw her he said it was appendicitis and she was to be operated right away. He called an ambulance that took her to a public hospital with explicit orders to get her to the surgery room. Finally, she was operated. The appendicitis was very advanced though, because the doctor the day before didn't give a shit about it, so the very simple procedure was not an option. She basically had to remove a large tract of her intestines.

So, those are a couple of reasons I pay for insurance, even though I hate it. The middle class mostly pays for private care and as soon as I made enough money to be able to pay for it, I started doing it (it's not very expensive, to be honest. It's about $530 annually; I just didn't have money for anything a couple of years back).

So, everyone in Brazil knows they would rather not depend on public health care. This is a little dated, but among 191 countries, Brazil ranked 121 in health care: http://thepatientfactor.com/canadian-he ... h-systems/

Our private plans are still better than public health care, even though they suck. They also suck because there are many statutes of mandatory care (I believe Obamacare has pretty much the same clauses of minimal care). Poor people can't pick and choose a plan for the diseases they are most likely to have; they have to pay for all of them, even for stuff they are not very likely to have.

Universal care, paradoxically, is very generous to the rich too. Rich people are the only ones who can sue the government (because the judicial system is so expensive and bureaucratic) and have it pay for their care when they need super expensive care. There are numerous reports of upper middle class and rich people who sued the government and were able to get it to foot their expensive medication bills. Since there's no limitations to the universal care in Brazil, they can get away with that.

Mostly, the only ones who get treatment in public hospitals are the very poor, because they have no choice. The rich have access to whatever expensive treatment they might need because they have the resources to get the government to act on their behalf. And the middle class pays for their private care, because it's better than nothing.

Well, I know my opinion doesn't count for much around here since I live in a poor country and my circumstances are unlike most of yours, but it's just my 2 cents.

Why on earth would you think that means your opinion doesn't count? It is just as valid as that of anyone else.

Well, my point was that it might not have been too relevant to people in this thread. My circumstances might not be very comparable to you guys'. Although I do have an opinion on public x private health care, it might not be the most interesting read.

Well, I know my opinion doesn't count for much around here since I live in a poor country and my circumstances are unlike most of yours, but it's just my 2 cents.

Sorry to go off topic, but this statement strikes me as odd. Based on gross domestic product, Brazil is one of the top ten richest countries on earth. Brazil is the second richest country in the western hemisphere. source

I have heard anecdotal stories that the gap between rich and poor is very great in Brazil, but I think this is also true in the United States. What am I missing here? Is there more to the story I don't know?

Samson, in absolute terms Brazil has a large economy, but you should remember we're half of South America. Our population is 200,000,000. Brazil's GDP per capita (according to purchasing power parity) is around $12,200, and is below the world average according to the IMF and the CIA.

Income inequality doesn't really tell the whole story, as you see, because even if income were perfectly equal, we would still be pretty poor. But yes, it is a very unequal country, so that adds insult to injury.

Also, games are very expensive. :P

[prfsnl_gmr]

It's about $530 annually.

I would be more than delighted to pay $530 per month for my health insurance.

[pepharytheworm]

It's about $530 annually.

I would be more than delighted to pay $530 per month for my health insurance.

Not for the service he described even with insurance, but it's much better than the alternative he described. By the way you really pay more than $530 a month? My highest amount was just under $500 a month but I did have a high deductible insurance. Basically enough that I don't have to file for bankruptcy in case of a major medical problem.

[Jmustang1968]

It's about $530 annually.

I would be more than delighted to pay $530 per month for my health insurance.

I am surprised you pay that much. I pay about 260 a month for my family plan. This is for the cheapest $2k deductible plan. I did the math, and the increased rates for the better plans only really start to make it worthwhile if you hit your yearly out of pocket max each year.

[jp1]

Well, I know my opinion doesn't count for much around here since I live in a poor country and my circumstances are unlike most of yours, but it's just my 2 cents.

Why on earth would you think that means your opinion doesn't count? It is just as valid as that of anyone else.

Well, my point was that it might not have been too relevant to people in this thread. My circumstances might not be very comparable to you guys'. Although I do have an opinion on public x private health care, it might not be the most interesting read.

Actually, it is very interesting and quite relevant to a lot of the points that have been made. Our circumstances may not match up, but I found it eye opening for sure. It is not the "Universal healthcare" I imagined and as more of an "idealist" this is why it is important that the other more realistic side of the equation be discussed and addressed.