How do people live without medical insurance?

[marurun]

Either way, I think improvement to the system or lack there of could be made. But I dont buy that our healthcare system is terrible.

How terrible our health care system is depends largely on your financial resources. The disparity is vast. For me, health care is mostly fine, just expensive. For someone who's below the poverty level in many states in the US, even if they have Medicaid (and many don't even have that), health care is about waiting until a problem is so bad you have to go to the emergency room.

[pepharytheworm]

Do you buy that when our health care can be paid for it is very good quality health care, but it is way over priced?
Why aren't there studies by those not-pushing universal healthcare then? I would ask myself that if I believed all the studies are done by advocates for universal healthcare.

[prfsnl_gmr]

That isnt a logical fallacy.

I know. I am just having a little fun. That said, I have not encountered any serious studies touting the virtues of the United States' health care system, and I think that, if the system really did deliver good results, there are certainly enough groups with vested interests in the system to publicize studies demonstrating that fact. You are also right that "terrible" is probably too strong of a word, since, in the right circumstances, the United States' health care system can deliver exceptional results. "Overpriced" is probably a better adjective.

Do you buy that when our health care can be paid for it is very good quality health care, but it is way over priced?
Why aren't there studies by those not-pushing universal healthcare then? I would ask myself that if I believed all the studies are done by advocates for universal healthcare.

Great minds think alike.

[Jmustang1968]

Do you buy that when our health care can be paid for it is very good quality health care, but it is way over priced?
Why aren't there studies by those not-pushing universal healthcare then? I would ask myself that if I believed all the studies are done by advocates for universal healthcare.

I was questioning how subjective that specifuc study was, amd how the different components were weighted and ranked. But a better study or attempt at a solution would be finding out why it is so expensive. Tort, heavy immigration, non paye4s, medicaid/medicare, aging population, high r&d costs etc... all contribute.

But I am going to avoid really arguing or discussing with you, as I have come to realize we disagree on just about everything and have a complete opposite mindset or outlook on things, and thus these discussions are pointless.

[Jmustang1968]

That isnt a logical fallacy.

I know. I am just having a little fun. That said, I have not encountered any serious studies touting the virtues of the United States' health care system, and I think that, if the system really did deliver good results, there are certainly enough groups with vested interests in the system to publicize studies demonstrating that fact. You are also right that "terrible" is probably too strong of a word, since, in the right circumstances, the United States' health care system can deliver exceptional results. "Overpriced" is probably a better adjective.

Do you buy that when our health care can be paid for it is very good quality health care, but it is way over priced?
Why aren't there studies by those not-pushing universal healthcare then? I would ask myself that if I believed all the studies are done by advocates for universal healthcare.

Great minds think alike.

Yeah, I can agree that the cost has spiralled out of control to an extent.

[prfsnl_gmr]

But I am going to avoid really arguing or discussing with you, as I have come to realize we disagree on just about everything and have a complete opposite mindset or outlook on things, and thus these discussions are pointless.

I think that we learn the most from conversations with people who do not share our views, and I like the fact that, on this forum at least, people with different viewpoints can discuss things in a civilized manner. The tone of the discourse here is very refreshing compared with most places on the internet, and I certainly have learned a lot from members who do not share my views of life experiences.

Yeah, I can agree that the cost has spiralled out of control to an extent.

That is what convinced me the United States' health care system needs to change. Several of my raises in recent years have been largely consumed by rising health insurance costs, and it is always disheartening to have what you hoped would be an increase in take-home pay consumed by the rising cost of health care.

[Jmustang1968]

But I am going to avoid really arguing or discussing with you, as I have come to realize we disagree on just about everything and have a complete opposite mindset or outlook on things, and thus these discussions are pointless.

I think that we learn the most from conversations with people who do not share our views, and I like the fact that, on this forum at least, people with different viewpoints can discuss things in a civilized manner. The tone of the discourse here is very refreshing compared with most places on the internet, and I certainly have learned a lot from members who do not share my views of life experiences.

I like how it is civilized and can obviously enjoy a good debate, and I cant recall prephary being otherwise. But, it is almost like prephary and I live on different planets. We may as well stop before we begin as the result is the same.

[jp1]

But I am going to avoid really arguing or discussing with you, as I have come to realize we disagree on just about everything and have a complete opposite mindset or outlook on things, and thus these discussions are pointless.

Kind of narrow minded, don't you think? I mean if you only want to have discussions with people who agree with you about everything, why have discussions at all? It doesn't seem as though anyone was being disrespectful, so I'm just wondering about that particular comment. You are so certain that your mind cannot be changed on a single topic and that you couldn't learn something from someone else that their opinions are invalidated by the fact they disagree with you?

I know you and I aren't likely to be friends Jmustang, based on previous discussion and our total lack of any alignment of our world view. I also don't want to argue, I still read your posts and engage with you in case I might see something in a new light because of a point you might have made. Regardless if any of that makes a bit of difference to you the comment was a bit disrespectful and dismissive in my view. Do you make a habit of speaking to people like that?

EDIT: Well prfsnl_gmr beat me to it. I was taking too long trying to be tactful as I seem to piss you off easily.

[prfsnl_gmr]

I know you and I aren't likely to be friends Jmustang, based on previous discussion and our total lack of any alignment of our world view.

You'd be surprised. Some of my very fondest friends have completely different politics and world views.

If they dislike 2D platformers, however, they can GTFO...

[MrPopo]

Any social solution that does not start off with "Assuming that all humans are selfish bastards" is no solution at all, it's just idealism. I'm not saying that healthcare is fine as it is, or we should accept it as it is. I'm saying we need realistic solutions. The initial proposals will have flaws, but they should at least start from a realistic place and then we can iterate on it to get closer to a true solution (though the existence of people in the equation means we'll at best approach a rue solution asymptotically).

Fair warning: If you are sick of my long winded responses, skip this. It is only vaguely relevant to the thread topic, moreover it is a direct response to what MrPopo wrote.

I will grant you that many (not all) humans are selfish. I also agree that a solution has to be rooted in reality in order to be feasible. However, I feel like idealism needs to be part of the equation if we want to strive to become a better society. A cynical approach probably makes a lot more sense when viewed through the eyes of what the world is. I like to think about what I would like the world to be, and from that standpoint I make my own personal judgments on what is right or wrong. Now, those personal judgments are not necessarily any more valid than those of anyone else, but to me the internal relationship between "what is" and "what should be" helps me feel like an individual rather than just a cog in the machine. I also feel without this idealism that we can't progress to be a more enlightened society.

A lot of greed has both allowed us to make great advancements as a people as well as being responsible for a great many misgivings. The exact same thing can be said for idealism. It isn't that I can't see your points or even that they don't make sense...it is simply that I want to believe in a future in which people become more enlightened and compassionate. In the case of "Every human is a selfish bastard.", what is the point in trying to fix anything? You might as well be throwing rocks at the ocean to try and change the tide. I don't want to live in that world. Surely you can see that a great many humanitarian efforts from genuinely caring people are carried out around the world daily?

Rather than base solutions on a selfish, callous, or indifferent majority, I think that the thoughts and opinions of people with a different perspective might need to start being considered. How many times do you read something that makes total sense from a logical standpoint and then find yourself thinking "That will never happen, X is going to squash that before it even makes it off the ground."? All because X might lose something from their bottom line. I'm not disagreeing that this is the way things are. I am emphatically making the argument that it is time for things to stop being "what they are" and start being "what they should". There is almost no chance of that happening, but if nobody is willing to take a step in that direction, were does that leave us in the future?

I'm not arguing against improving the system; I'm arguing against solutions rooted entirely in idealism. If we accept that people are bastards then we can rig the system to account for that, albeit in an imperfect manner. For example, look at the three pillars of the US government. The checks and balances are there to prevent any one arm from being able to go off willy nilly and doing whatever they want.

I fully agree that the current state of healthcare is pretty fucked up, with the biggest thing being that the costs have spiraled out of control. Maybe healthcare should be treated like a utility, where you don't really have a choice (how many times has someone bleeding out debated over which ER to go to?), but there are regulations that keep the costs to an average affordable level. But you still need to pay or they shut off your water/dialysis.