Kickstarter "Tropes vs Women in Videogames"

[AppleQueso]

But why is the geek/nerd culture so misogynistic? Is it because because on average they have a harder with women and then take their frustrations out? Seems kinda dumb becuase that makes it even harder to get women to like you.

Maybe, I think it's a bit of that + internet anonymity allowing them to be a bit of a 'tough guy.' Who knows, really, it's not like it justifies that sort of behavior in any way whatsoever.

It's honestly a lot bigger than just nerd/gaming culture as well though, I've definitely seen nasty things well outside of that. Nerd/gaming circles are just what I'm the most familiar with online, and it's the focus of this particular discussion, so that's what I'm speaking to.

We can speculate all we want, but for whatever reason, many people on the internet seem to think that threats of rape, violence, doxxing, harassment, stalking, etc are reasonable and appropriate responses to largely innocuous observations like "this community has a problem with women" or "games need better representation."

It's a silencing tactic, it's meant to scare you into shutting up about whatever issue you're discussing.

Frankly I think that begs the question as to why it's so important to them that people shut up? What exactly are they afraid of happening if sexism is actually addressed in society, communities, or media?

Also yes, I'm aware that Racketboy, as far as I know, doesn't have anyone who engages in this sort of harassing behavior.

[Erik_Twice]

But why is the geek/nerd culture so misogynistic?

I don't think geek culture is more sexist than other subcultures, it's simply that sexism is very widespread.

[Gunstar Green]

I've heard more sexist and horrible things said in the video game world since her videos gained attention, and anything related to this brings out the misogynistic crowd from nowhere.

Maybe that was just lying dormant.

This sort of thing happens whenever a group that's used to getting its way is suddenly forced to look in the mirror.

It's like the cultural version of an allergy flare-up when the status-quo is questioned.

[Forlorn Drifter]

I think part of what brings out this misogynistic bullshit is that for these people video games are an escape from real life, and they don't want it changed to be closer to real life. Following the sexually frustrated idea pointed out above, the games that may have sexist tones allow them to get what they want without anything crossing a line like in real life- hookers, video game women who fall all over you, women wearing chainmail bikini's, etc.

I think it could be compared to the comic world before women started becoming better represented in that medium. Looking at some of the older underground comics, or similar pulp magazines from the same era, you see a lot of the same problems. Lurid sexuality, damsels in distress, manly men, violence, etc. Male power fantasies, essentially. Not to say that there weren't good examples to be found in these at the time, the same as there aren't good portrayals of women in gaming now. I don't think Conan the Barbarian would still be seen so highly by many if Howard hadn't written at least some good female characters. (I'm going to ignore Howard's racist tendencies and the fact that he only wrote good white female characters for the moment, although that shows some other downfalls of the pulp magazines.)

[Key-Glyph]

I don't think it really needs pointing out, but all these arguments about gamers abandoning companies and games due to "catering to a minority" are implicitly supporting the idea that men are actively set against playing as female characters (which, incidentally, we've also been discussing over here).

I'm really trying to figure out why this is. Is it because the subliminal message that a game featuring a woman must be "for girls" and therefore "easier" is still around (see: Chess for Girls)? Is it because the average male gamer takes his avatar so seriously he's actually grossed out by the gender swap, or perhaps afraid he'll be judged by his community for it? It's especially confusing because the gamer dudes here as well as the ones I hang out with in the outside world do not have this problem.

It's such a weird thing from a woman's perspective because we've been playing as male characters for so long, I guess. It's exciting to have a female choice, and in today's age I see no excuse for not having one, but I don't have a cooties reaction or anything.

And along the lines of "a company is allowed to make their own choices," that's true. So they should take responsibility for their choices and come out and say "We just didn't want to spend the effort or time on making women multiplayer characters" or "Boys only, sorry," instead of this "Oh, we really wanted to, but you see, we ran out of gas, and got a flat tire, and there were locusts..." kind of stuff.

[oxymoron]

"Oh, we really wanted to, but you see, we ran out of gas, and got a flat tire, and there were locusts..." kind of stuff.

I might have to sig that.

[Cronozilla]

It's probably not a problem that's exclusive to geek/nerd culture. It's a problem in society.

It has to do with an utter lack of respect people have for opposing ideals and other people.

I don't think the death threats are unique to her situation. Hell, I don't think the death threats are even an extreme example. It's exceedingly common. Which is depressing.

I don't think anyone is going to argue people should be threatened because you disagree with them, at least not openly. Since they really have no leg to stand on in that argument, they're just expressing personal bigotry. It's the reason why most double standards are so subversive and subtle. Because people KNOW they can't openly express bigotry and "win". The internet, allows people to be anonymous and opens direct lines of communications. So, it's not particularly surprising. It's terrible, but her situation is not an exclusive example of this.

The thing that's the most disappointing about these videos is the attitude around them by the audience. On the one hand you have death and sexual assault threatening pieces of shit, and on the other you have aggressive supporters whom are ready to smite down any whom don't agree.

It's kinda fucking stupid. And it implicitly makes it so the actual subject can't be discussed. People are too invested, and they don't, generally, respect other people or their opinions.

@Key I'd be curious to see some numbers on how many people in marketing are responsible for that nonsense. I don't think they're generally trained to actually do things people want. As a sidebar, I'd be really curious to see how many women in that area are making those decisions. I think more than anything, companies market to the stereotype.

[Key-Glyph]

I might have to sig that.

If you do, know that I was channeling Jake Blues, who didn't realize he was channeling some of these publishers at the time:

@Key I'd be curious to see some numbers on how many people in marketing are responsible for that nonsense. I don't think they're generally trained to actually do things people want. As a sidebar, I'd be really curious to see how many women in that area are making those decisions. I think more than anything, companies market to the stereotype.

They often do market to the stereotype, but a lot of the times they earnestly believe it's justified by research. The book From Barbie to Mortal Kombat: Gender and Computer Games (written in the 90s) focused a bit on the marketing issue and the chicken-or-the-egg situation within it: children absorb what they're "supposed" to like along gender lines at an extremely early age, and marketers base their design decisions on the self-reporting of kids who have already internalized these "rules."

An excerpt:

"It is not accident, for example, that girls do want their products shipping in pink or purple boxes rather than in royal blue (associated with boys) or black (favored by academic feminists); such desires are manufactured by the toy industry itself long before the researches get a chance to talk with the girls and find out 'what girls really want from technology' (Groppe, cited in Weil 1997). It’s difficult to carry out empirical research that doesn’t result in children giving as answers what they think they’re supposed to say (see de Castell and Bryson, this volume)."

The book later cites studies where children responded differently to toys based on such factors as whether they were being observed by an adult, if they had a peer with them at the time, and the gender of the adult(s)/companion(s).

[flex wood]

I don't think it really needs pointing out, but all these arguments about gamers abandoning companies and games due to "catering to a minority" are implicitly supporting the idea that men are actively set against playing as female characters (which, incidentally, we've also been discussing over here).

I'm really trying to figure out why this is. Is it because the subliminal message that a game featuring a woman must be "for girls" and therefore "easier" is still around (see: Chess for Girls)? Is it because the average male gamer takes his avatar so seriously he's actually grossed out by the gender swap, or perhaps afraid he'll be judged by his community for it? It's especially confusing because the gamer dudes here as well as the ones I hang out with in the outside world do not have this problem.

It's such a weird thing from a woman's perspective because we've been playing as male characters for so long, I guess. It's exciting to have a female choice, and in today's age I see no excuse for not having one, but I don't have a cooties reaction or anything.

And along the lines of "a company is allowed to make their own choices," that's true. So they should take responsibility for their choices and come out and say "We just didn't want to spend the effort or time on making women multiplayer characters" or "Boys only, sorry," instead of this "Oh, we really wanted to, but you see, we ran out of gas, and got a flat tire, and there were locusts..." kind of stuff.

Honestly I see a lot of the backlash coming as a reaction to how badly things get blown out of proportion by the gaming media and how they are purposefully misleading to get hits on their sites. I don't think anyone is against playing as a female character because they don't want to play as a girl I think that is short sighted of bigger issues like how things are being portrayed in the media and people judging games before anything is even playable when there are bigger issues facing women in the world such as the media that are targeted at women that continue to support terrible female stereotypes (i.e. romantic comedies, television shows and many others.) I'm sure a lot of people also feel attacked in a lot of this for liking games that are being attacked kind of like how people will defend a football team that they like if someone is bad mouthing them.

The issue should be why aren't companies targeting women as much as they are targeting men, when obviously there is a sizable portion of gamers that would prefer to play as a female character and have better written roles for women in games rather than just snu snu and eye candy.

The whole last paragraph of yours, you are referring to the whole Assassins Creed Unity thing that Kotaku made a kerfuffle about correct? Did you know that you will always see your character as the main character of the game and that only other players, in the coop games, will see your created skin, which is probably just a pick one out of 4 face skins and the color of your robes? I don't even understand how that got so blown out that it is seen as a big deal.

[Key-Glyph]

I don't think anyone is against playing as a female character because they don't want to play as a girl...

Just FYI, according to the article J T linked in that other thread, apparently some publishers are under the impression that this is the case. That's what got me thinking about it.

...I think that is short sighted of bigger issues like how things are being portrayed in the media and people judging games before anything is even playable when there are bigger issues facing women in the world such as the media that are targeted at women that continue to support terrible female stereotypes (i.e. romantic comedies, television shows and many others.)

Well... yes, the issue is multifaceted. But that doesn't mean that we can't choose certain facets to focus on. I'm a video game person, not a television or movie person. So this is what I am most invested in and will notice most. It's just as relevant as the other mediums, in my opinion, and should be open for discussion. Also, what a character is never portrayed as doing can be just as problematic as a recurring stock character. If, for instance, women were never the action heroes, it would reinforce the subconscious idea that for some reason they couldn't be.

The whole last paragraph of yours, you are referring to the whole Assassins Creed Unity thing that Kotaku made a kerfuffle about correct? Did you know that you will always see your character as the main character of the game and that only other players, in the coop games, will see your created skin, which is probably just a pick one out of 4 face skins and the color of your robes? I don't even understand how that got so blown out that it is seen as a big deal.

No, I didn't, so I do appreciate the clarification -- but I don't see how this makes the issue less of an eye-roller. It's not rage-inducing for me, just a big fat eye-roll. I'm not only concerned with the character I see as myself on the screen -- I'm concerned with what other people see, too. It's neat. It's fun. It's meaningful. I love rampaging around as a Geth or Volus in Mass Effect multiplayer, knowing that that's what people are seeing. It's annoying when there are big limits on your customization, especially when they seem so arbitrary (and don't seem to be a problem for other major companies).

Consider, for instance, that my XBox Live account forbids my female avatar from wearing a lot of "boy" (heavy quotes) clothes. There is no real reason for this and it stinks, because the women's freebie shoes selection totally sucks, IMHO. I had to buy a pair of hi-tops, and I don't know what annoyed me more: that my only option for sensible footwear cost points, or that I actually felt compelled enough to spend those points.

Now, if the Assassin's Creed crew were to say, "F it, we've dispensed with the whole male/female system and are giving you full control over your character's hair length, clothing choices, and body type," that would be awesome. Extremely unlikely (of any developer), but awesome.