So who's gonna capitalize on the experienced gamer market?

[Adderall]

Nice post.

I wish we had a "bat signal" for Working Designs.

[Original_Name]

(Experienced meaning gamers who were active during and before the PlayStation era.)

I would've said Nintendo, as they have the most popular gaming IPs in the world, but they're too preoccupied with the casual gaming market. That's kinda what Nintendo does now; cater to this new market.


*snip*

Anyway, who's gonna capitalize on this market? It doesn't look like Sony, Microsoft, or horrifyingly enough, Nintendo care much to, so who's gonna do it? Sega? Konami? Capcom? It seems to me that this demographic needs it's own dedicated platform, or at least a general push from the industry to cater to this demographic on the existing hardware. Thoughts?

The question needs to be asked: how much money can the "experienced gamer" market deliver? The casual market is big dollars. And at the end of the day these companies are in it for money, not love.

Here's a post I made on the Shoryuken forums in the same vein:
http://forums.shoryuken.com/showpost.ph ... stcount=15

As a 30 year old gamer (who started gaming some 25 years ago), I fall into your "experienced gamer" category above. But I recognise that where I was once the majority demographic, I'm now the minority. As I said in my SRK thread, I don't like it. But I've got kids to feed and a mortgage to pay, so I completely understand it.

There'll always be fringe companies and indi developers to satisfy my gaming wants. But I understand that it'll only be a few games a year, and not dozens like it used to be. Capcom, SNK/P, Arc System Works, Konami, Treasure, Cave, and plenty of others all spit stuff out from time to time that I'll buy. But the 50,000 copies of some 2D side scroller doesn't make shareholders happy compared to the millions of copies of some generic 3D franchise. Sad but true.

I never meant to say that experienced gamers are the largest market or anything like that, I just said I feel that alot of them have become increasingly displeased with the content the industry currently has to offer. Which is why there's been this whole retro-craze lately. EGM had an article about the huge number of retro-themed games recently. You guys are all making great points about there being companies who still produce games for this market, but the numbers seem to decrease every year. Gamers of the older years seem to be detatching themselves from current gaming more and more, and reverting back to their old systems. People are way more excited for Chrono Trigger DS and other retro ports and remakes (Final Fantasy, Castlevania, etc.) than Cooking Mama, Destroy All Humans!, and mindless racers which are cheap games meant to target the gaming-uninitiated. The former make more money, too.

I honestly do think that if a company marketed primarily to more experienced gamers by advertising a desire to go back to gaming's "roots", then capitalizing on it, it would generate alot of business. There're alot of people dissatisfied with the industry as a whole right now, and while we do get the few good releases, the industry is largely bogged down with cheap and meaningless games. While this generates money for the existing publishers, I believe that the more open market for the gamer who is experienced and wants more out of his games has alot of potential for revenue. No, it's not as large as the casual market, but it's still large enough to make a profit.

I always find it so strange how if you ask why they don't make enough quality games anymore, a million people jump up and shout, "Because there's not enough people like us who want them!". Even ignoring the vast amounts of people who say this, the question arises: why on earth would the current generation of gamers be impressed by so many sub-par games? I think that trivializing video games to the point of being mostly cheap rehashes of previously explored ideas, and marketing them as big realeases will only lead to more apathetic gamers as a whole. If video games are mostly cheap junk, then the majority of consumers will progressively just move on from the medium as a whole. I say there ARE enough gamers who aren't impressed with current gaming content and were more impressed by the older virtues of game development that a dedicated platform could capitalize on this market and see alot of revenue from it. It would be good for this demographic, and it would be good for the industry as a whole. This industry needs to show some foresight, or it'll go the way of the comic book.

[elvis]

There're alot of people dissatisfied with the industry as a whole right now, and while we do get the few good releases, the industry is largely bogged down with cheap and meaningless games. While this generates money for the existing publishers, I believe that the more open market for the gamer who is experienced and wants more out of his games has alot of potential for revenue. No, it's not as large as the casual market, but it's still large enough to make a profit.

I feel your pain, and to be honest went through the same mental processes as you about 5 years back. But what you need to be careful of is surrounding yourself with vocal folks who share your opinion. It builds the delusion that the demographic you fill is "a lot of people", when in fact you're just a handful of alternative people in a sea of mainstream folks.

I always find it so strange how if you ask why they don't make enough quality games anymore, a million people jump up and shout, "Because there's not enough people like us who want them!". Even ignoring the vast amounts of people who say this, the question arises: why on earth would the current generation of gamers be impressed by so many sub-par games? I think that trivializing video games to the point of being mostly cheap rehashes of previously explored ideas, and marketing them as big realeases will only lead to more apathetic gamers as a whole. If video games are mostly cheap junk, then the majority of consumers will progressively just move on from the medium as a whole. I say there ARE enough gamers who aren't impressed with current gaming content and were more impressed by the older virtues of game development that a dedicated platform could capitalize on this market and see alot of revenue from it. It would be good for this demographic, and it would be good for the industry as a whole. This industry needs to show some foresight, or it'll go the way of the comic book.

I admire your enthusiasm, but consider the size of the beast you are talking about. Name the top 10 game companies in the world, and you'd be naming companies that make in excess of 10 billion dollars a year collectively.

These are big bastard businesses. They're not in it for the "greater good" or some other quaint notion. They're in it for profit.

Don't feel bad however. Indi gamers will never die. There'll always be a guy in a basement somewhere knocking up games "just for the fun of it". That's how the games biz started, and even if the bloated behemoth that it is today collapses in on itself, the indi gamer devs will survive like cockroaches after nuclear fallout.

The games biz has been through a couple of minor crashes, and one major crash already. There'll be plenty more of both, but games aren't going anywhere. Play is a natural state of being for all animals, and there'll always be game developers and game players no matter what happens to the mainstream games "business".

In short: play what you love and be happy. Don't worry too much about the crap that's out there. There's a lot of it, and life's too short to get angry at all of it.

[Dreamstation]

In the current gaming market hardcore gaming is barely live. it has been replaced by generic shooters that clone each other and have zero point to the games beyond killing.

Haze was a top selling game in 2008 and it was atrocious and it sold because of good graphics, media hype and the all mighty wondering around with a gun and murdering.

a decent FPS will out sell any other game type in the current market.

[thejamessea]

That fact that Sonic Unleashed has scored so low tells you all you need to know. The game is great. Gamers these days and reviewers don't know what classic gaming is all about, and Unleashed is about as classic as it gets.

[Original_Name]

Elvis, you're obviously a very, very intelligent person. It takes a smart man to pack a good moral into a message board post, of all things.

I'm really not mad about anything, though. I have enough games on my old consoles (hell, my Dreamcast alone) to last me the rest of my life. The current state of the videogame industry doesn't bother me all that much (though it doesn't impress me). I honestly don't know how large this demographic is, but I would still imagine it's relatively large; large enough to make a profit on, and if it were catered to by a company, I'm sure it'd generate alot of positive press.

Just because the majority of people don't listen to punk doesn't mean that Epitaph and Dischord Records don't make alot of money.

*shrugs* I was just messing around with the idea in my head. Maybe the market isn't as large as I thought, maybe it is, I dunno. But regardless of size, that market is wide open right now. Thoughtz0rs?

[elvis]

*shrugs* I was just messing around with the idea in my head. Maybe the market isn't as large as I thought, maybe it is, I dunno. But regardless of size, that market is wide open right now. Thoughtz0rs?

Some thoughts:

Japan's arcade business is still moving along. They've definitely suffered some serious hits this year (Sega and Sammy made massive losses and had to close a few arcades). But overall it's definitely more alive than the western arcade scene. They still see regular releases of independent and semi-independent games that target "oldschool" gamers on arcade. Obviously the list of Doujin-turned-pro 2D fighters is huge (Akatsuki Blitzkampf, Melty Blood, Arcana Heart, etc, etc) and the same for shmups (Trouble Witches is a little independent demo I played some 2 years ago, and is now seeing an arcade release).

So for the "experienced" Japanese player, their local arcade is the best place to get these things.

Nobody here needs to be told that arcades are pretty much dead in the west. That leaves console distribution systems like XBox Live Arcade and Steam for developers of these sorts of games. I think the problem is two fold:

1) Digital distribution systems mean a corporate overlord who demands certain things. I have a friend working on a game for XBLA (I can't say what exactly, but it's a 3D remake of a classic arcade game, and from the demos I've seen it's not a slapped together rush job either - very close attention to detail), but there were very strict requirements from Microsoft about the style of game, the fact that it was 3D (very difficult to get 2D games out there currently), and expected sales. It also means profit sharing (better with Steam than anyone else I hear), which can put some people off.

2) There's just simple a lack of experienced game developers for retro-style games. I can think of plenty of examples of utterly rubbish titles. Aegis Wing stands out for me: a title I wouldn't force my worst enemy to play, yet somehow it was allowed on XBLA. It's painfully obvious the developers of this game last experienced a good shmup 20 years ago, and decided to have a crack at it for laughs. No thought, research, or playtesting by people that matter was put into the title at all, and shows in the final product.

So I think in the west, retro-style gaming is doomed. Everything is 3D bling written by kids half my age, most of whom have never played anything pre-Playstation and wouldn't understand the games even if they were forced to sit down and try them. Older developers certainly won't be attracted to the genre for the money. Regardless of "potential market", most developers have it firmly implanted in their heads that retro style games don't make a dollar. Most older devs are becoming mentors and managers to younger devs, working for big companies that keep pushing out the garbage we see today. And I can't criticise them, because despite being quite good at what I do, I've also given up cutting edge independent consulting to be a corporate whore in my particular field, because I've got kids, a mortgage and poor health now, and it's just a whole lot easier and safer for me to work for a big bastard corporate instead.

I think retro-style gaming is in the hands of two groups: a small pocket of Japanese developers (see my list back in my first post: all Japanese companies), and indi games devs (who invariably get bigger and better, and finally acquired by a big bastard corporate). For those two reasons, the style of games we desire are going to remain trickle-fed into the world for some time to come yet. As long as mainstream gaming continues to demand long development times of big, flashy games that pay mega-bucks, that's where the majority of developers are going to end up.

I don't think comparing it to music is apt, as music is a very different medium. Games devs need to either be a jack of all trades (developer/debugger, story writer, music composer, graphic artist, etc) or bring that talent in from elsewhere. As such I dare say the effort/time required for a group of aspiring artists to knock up a single song versus a single video game isn't proportionate. I dare say there are a heck of a lot more indi songwriters out there than indi games devs.

I know it all sounds cynical and utterly pessimistic, but I can't see any other result for it. Until gaming loses it's mainstream market (which I don't see happening ever), then the big money people will continue to eat up all the development talent to pander to the big money spenders (which usually equates to stupid people in large numbers, who over history have been responsible for the worst crimes against humanity and the planet). While the "experienced", hardcore or retro gamer may be willing to spend big dollars on single titles, it doesn't account for the hordes of mindless drones who'll all shell out $70 for Grand Theft Auto 12.

I don't like it at all. And yes, it makes me a little angry inside. But that's life I guess. I can stand here and say "vote with your wallet", but I'm certain you (and most reading this) already do. I don't buy most modern games, and I definitely shell out cash for stuff worth playing on the rare occasion that it does appear. But for every one of you and I there are literally tens of thousands of folks who just want to be spoon-fed shallow next-gen graphics and bling instead of something deeper.

[MrPopo]

I have a friend working on a game for XBLA (I can't say what exactly, but it's a 3D remake of a classic arcade game, and from the demos I've seen it's not a slapped together rush job either

Just answer this. Is it, or is it not, Missile Command?

[elvis]

Just answer this. Is it, or is it not, Missile Command?

Definitely not Missile Command.

I'll send him an email and see how much or how little I can talk about it. I've seen screenshots and videos and it looks great. I'd love to share it here.

[fox099]

the experienced gamer market is not something we should expect right now for the current generation of consoles. the best games come out near the end of a consoles life from small publishers (props go back to whoever commented on working designs), once there have been enough money made on the crap products the casual gamers and the fps kids buy. fortunately for us, we all have enough games in our collections we still havent played and can afford to wait until the next big game is released...