Pretty much the craziest sale Steam has ever had

[corn619]

Its simple, I don't trust downloadable content period. The shit companies have been pulling when it comes to DRM lately is a bit over the top. It may not be to bad now, but I fear the future when companies have full control of our paided content. You may think I'm paroniod but I'd rather have the game in hand.

[Mozgus]

Consider what happens in 10-20 years from now.

Given that this is a forum full of retro gamers, many of us own consoles from 10-20 years ago, and still actively play the games on them. What happens to the games of today in 10-20 years time if the Steam servers no longer support them? There's no guarantee that Steam will be around forever, or that they'll be owned by their currently sensible owners.

First off, Steam has said that if they ever did leave the business, they would release an offline version of Steam that would work with all your steam backups. You would install from your backups just like usual. You would probably still have to play the games through the Steam client.

Also, practically every non-valve retail game on Steam is nothing more than a copy of the Program Files folder, with the main EXE modified for use with Steam. You could always just replace that EXE with any widely available crack for that version number of the game, and run the game directly, outside of Steam. Trust me, I've tested this out on many games I own on Steam. Again this whole situation is very unlikely, as Steam is practically monopolizing the digital delivery market.

I can pull my 25 year old Sega SC-3000H out of the cupboard, load up a tape, and play games. Will Steam games be the same?

Disc based games give more of a guarantee, particularly for gamers who like to replay games time and time again. And again, this *is* a forum full of people playing old games over and over.

Do you even know anything about PC gaming? Even 15 year old PC games can't natively work on today's machines, besides through emulation. And assuming you will actually have a PC that's 15 years old and still functioning is a far fetch. PCs just don't last like old solid-state consoles do.

Genuine questions because I don't know:

How long does offline mode work? Say Steam goes dark, will it work indefinitely?

Yes, man. Steam only HAS to be online in order to download the game the first time. After that you can just backup any games you want, and reinstall them later offline.

I'm also reading the Steam forums at the moment and seeing countless errors people are having with offline mode. Is that common?

Read the forums for any piece of software ever mode and you'll see bug threads. I've used offline mode plenty. It works for me. My only gripe is that to switch to offline mode requires the entire client to be restarted.

Its simple, I don't trust downloadable content period. The shit companies have been pulling when it comes to DRM lately is a bit over the top. It may not be to bad now, but I fear the future when companies have full control of our paided content. You may think I'm paroniod but I'd rather have the game in hand.

Then backup the Steam game and burn it to a disc. There! It's the exact same thing! You can physically hold your purchase. I do it with all the games I buy on there.

[corn619]

Wheres the cover artwork that I love, the instruction book with all the cool pictures, strategies and character backgrounds? Wheres my collectable preorder swag? thats right there is none because I downloaded the game. I love collecting old and new games published in a physical medium because all the things I mentioned come with them. Downloads have no resale value period. I'm not trying to bash anything to each his own but downloadable content doesn't come with all the stuff a physical game comes with. I guess I'm just old school in my thinking. I still love going to the videogame store after all these years. Talking my friends there about new releases, Finding that lost treasure of a game lost in the pile. The drive home excited about playing a new game. I find those thing fun, call me old fashioned hence why I like retro game websites.

[Mozgus]

Wheres the cover artwork that I love, the instruction book with all the cool pictures, strategies and character backgrounds? Wheres my collectable preorder swag? thats right there is none because I downloaded the game. I love collecting old and new games published in a physical medium because all the things I mentioned come with them. Downloads have no resale value period. I'm not trying to bash anything to each his own but downloadable content doesn't come with all the stuff a physical game comes with. I guess I'm just old school in my thinking. I still love going to the videogame store after all these years. Talking my friends there about new releases, Finding that lost treasure of a game lost in the pile. The drive home excited about playing a new game. I find those thing fun, call me old fashioned hence why I like retro game websites.

They come in the form of JPGs and PDFs now. If you really want that stupid shit, then print them out. Newsflash: Games stopped being shipped with unintentionally entertaining paperwork since the middle of the 16-bit age. You're not missing anything. Beyond manuals and case inserts, games very rarely come with anything else. I'm not sure what you're talking about. Paper as an informational medium as a whole is dead. Just ask all the newspaper and magazine companies going bankrupt. Sorry, but you can't avoid it.

Personally, I think the age of game collecting died a couple generations ago. It's not going to get any better. I'm kinda happy that I don't have to store generic cases and boxes for games. That crap takes up too much room, especially PC game boxes. I love being able to buy games within 60 seconds without having to get off my ass. I love having a selection of games on my screen, without having to fiddle around with discs.

Also, services like gog.com often include tons of additional materials like soundtracks and artwork with your download.

[corn619]

Wheres the cover artwork that I love, the instruction book with all the cool pictures, strategies and character backgrounds? Wheres my collectable preorder swag? thats right there is none because I downloaded the game. I love collecting old and new games published in a physical medium because all the things I mentioned come with them. Downloads have no resale value period. I'm not trying to bash anything to each his own but downloadable content doesn't come with all the stuff a physical game comes with. I guess I'm just old school in my thinking. I still love going to the videogame store after all these years. Talking my friends there about new releases, Finding that lost treasure of a game lost in the pile. The drive home excited about playing a new game. I find those thing fun, call me old fashioned hence why I like retro game websites.

They come in the form of JPGs and PDFs now. If you really want that stupid shit, then print them out. Newsflash: Games stopped being shipped with unintentionally entertaining paperwork since the middle of the 16-bit age. You're not missing anything. Beyond manuals and case inserts, games very rarely come with anything else. I'm not sure what you're talking about. Paper as an informational medium as a whole is dead. Just ask all the newspaper and magazine companies going bankrupt. Sorry, but you can't avoid it.

Personally, I think the age of game collecting died a couple generations ago. It's not going to get any better. I'm kinda happy that I don't have to store generic cases and boxes for games. That crap takes up too much room, especially PC game boxes. I love being able to buy games within 60 seconds without having to get off my ass. I love having a selection of games on my screen, without having to fiddle around with discs.

Also, services like gog.com often include tons of additional materials like soundtracks and artwork with your download.

If game collecting is dead why do collectable limited editions still sell extremely well? Why do current limited edition current gen games fetch high prices at auction? And why do tons of people collect rare PS2 games? I'll tell you why because game collecting is not dead by any means. Anyways like I said, to each his own.

[Mozgus]

If game collecting is dead why do collectable limited editions still sell extremely well? Why do current limited edition current gen games fetch high prices at auction? And why do tons of people collect rare PS2 games? I'll tell you why because game collecting is not dead by any means. Anyways like I said, to each his own.

Limited Editions exist because when a game gets enough hype, publishers realize that they can throw a bunch of worthless shit in with a product and raise the price $20 more, and it will always sell out. People are stupid. But it's not collectible. Mere months later, no one gives a crap about those pieces of plastic. Look at that Halo 3 helmet. Who cares about that thing now? People realized how worthless it was, and they immediately begin trying to find a real purpose for it, like modding it to be a REAL helmet, or a a toaster or whatever.

When did limited edition extras lose their flair? Probably around when Atlus just shipped them stock with each game they put out. I mean good for them. I have no problem with that. Other publishers probably did though. Atlus games are a niche market. It would be a different story if Madden 09 came with a big plastic Madden head that was a phone, and it screamed Madden quotes instead of ringing.

Where was I....? Oh.

Take a look at MGS3. If you preordered the limited edition, that was a total of 4 DVDs of content. But no matter the content they held, nor their quantity produced. No one gives a crap. How do I know? Because when MGS3 was rereleased as part of the 1-3 set a few months ago, not only was it missing the 2 bonus DVDs, but it wasd even missing one of the discs that came stock with the regular version. And who complained? Not one single person. No one cares. They just want the core game. Fu fu little extras are pointless. It doesn't matter what their asking prices are online. What matters is the amount of people who are buying them at those prices.

[marurun]

First off, Steam has said that if they ever did leave the business, they would release an offline version of Steam that would work with all your steam backups. You would install from your backups just like usual. You would probably still have to play the games through the Steam client.

While I think Steam is among the best as far as on-line, downloadable systems go, this is not a valid point. If Valve goes bankrupt who's going to pay to program and release the off-line only version of Steam? If they get bought, who says the company that buys them is going to care what Valve promised before they were bought? Unless Valve is putting money and code into escrow you simply can't count on this happening.

If you want more arguments about why download purchase systems simply aren't as reliable as owning the disc, visit Twenty Sided Tale (http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/) and read some of Shamus's DRM rants. I agree with him in almost every case if not every case. Doesn't mean he is right, but he makes a strong case, and I heartily approve.

Also, as for emulating older games, I was playing Champions of Krynn for a while in DosBox on my PC and it ran perfectly. Only problem was I had to hack it to run since it's impossible to find the manual any more and the copy protection method involved listing x word on y page in journal entry z.

[elvis]

First off, Steam has said that if they ever did leave the business, they would release an offline version of Steam that would work with all your steam backups. You would install from your backups just like usual. You would probably still have to play the games through the Steam client.

This is the sort of thing I was after. Is there a quote, or an SLA document somewhere?

My only concern from that is that if they get bought out by some big bastard corporate who changes the rules. Speaking as someone who does work for big bastard corporates who get bought out by other big bastard corporates, I've seen plenty of small customers get stepped on over the years.

Do you even know anything about PC gaming? Even 15 year old PC games can't natively work on today's machines, besides through emulation.

Of course they do, because they don't need to connect to Steam servers, or authorise against some online DRM system.

And assuming you will actually have a PC that's 15 years old and still functioning is a far fetch. PCs just don't last like old solid-state consoles do.

DOSBox and WINE are proving that you don't need a genuine 486 running DOS, or Pentium running Windows 95 to enjoy games from those eras.

I'm still playing legitimate copies of various Street Fighter games on DC, PSX and PS2 (on original hardware and via emulators for PSX which happily take legitimate PSX CDs). Considering the games are 10-15 years old and I'm still enjoying them, I'm hoping I can buy a copy of SF4 and get the same length of time out of it. The lifespan of my consoles and media are already a concern. Adding the worry of some third party corporate's life expectancy into the mix is something I'd like to avoid where possible.

Yes, man. Steam only HAS to be online in order to download the game the first time. After that you can just backup any games you want, and reinstall them later offline.

Excellent.

Thank you for the answers. They've made me more confident about buying from Steam.

[Mozgus]

First off, Steam has said that if they ever did leave the business, they would release an offline version of Steam that would work with all your steam backups. You would install from your backups just like usual. You would probably still have to play the games through the Steam client.

This is the sort of thing I was after. Is there a quote, or an SLA document somewhere?

It was some point after HL2 launched, and there were 1 million and 1 people like you guys who were terrified to buy digitally. I reluctantly bought it retail because it was preordered already, and I still regret it. I have this worthless box and disc here that arent good for anything.

My only concern from that is that if they get bought out by some big bastard corporate who changes the rules. Speaking as someone who does work for big bastard corporates who get bought out by other big bastard corporates, I've seen plenty of small customers get stepped on over the years.

Yeah because it's totally a sane business practice to buy one of the most successful PC companies of all time, only to brutally rape customer trust and take a huge loss on the entire acquisition.

Of course they do, because they don't need to connect to Steam servers, or authorise against some online DRM system.

Not quite kiddo. I'm referring to 15+ year old PC games that can't even be installed, let alone played, because the installer methods were built for Windows 3.11 and such. Current Windows has no idea what to do with them. You're lucky if someone made a source engine upgrade for the game, and you just copy paste certain archive files off the disc. But if you're the kind of person who finds that to be no problem, then you certainly cant have any beef with Steam's extremely simple process.

DOSBox and WINE are proving that you don't need a genuine 486 running DOS, or Pentium running Windows 95 to enjoy games from those eras.

Like I said, emulation. You aren't playing those games by their intended method. You're emulating them. And emulating them is not as simple as the original method.

I'm still playing legitimate copies of various Street Fighter games on DC, PSX and PS2 (on original hardware and via emulators for PSX which happily take legitimate PSX CDs). Considering the games are 10-15 years old and I'm still enjoying them, I'm hoping I can buy a copy of SF4 and get the same length of time out of it. The lifespan of my consoles and media are already a concern.

Not only did I never argue with any of this, but I also practice it myself. I don't see how it's relevant. Consoles aren't like PCs.

While I think Steam is among the best as far as on-line, downloadable systems go, this is not a valid point. If Valve goes bankrupt who's going to pay to program and release the off-line only version of Steam? If they get bought, who says the company that buys them is going to care what Valve promised before they were bought? Unless Valve is putting money and code into escrow you simply can't count on this happening.

You talk as if it's some huge technical undertaking to deactivate Steam's internet functionality. It's not. It would take them like one day to do. Hell, Steam has been cracked for years. People literally can use illegal modified versions of the Steam client to download and install games they did not buy. If a bunch of outsiders with no source code manages to code that up, I'm sure Steam employees know how to "unplug" the fucking thing, so to speak.

[raztat]

I would get bio shock if I didnt have it for the 360 its only 5 bucks!