Game of Thrones: New HBO Series

[Jmustang1968]

What would you say are good examples of writing, or fantasy/scifi writing?

First, I want to say that there is a huge difference between good sci-fi writing and good fantasy writing. With that, there is also a huge distinction between what is considered a good story and good writing. I would look to authors like Tolkien and Robert Jordan (although in Jordan's case, I would lean more towards the earlier Wheel of Time books).

What distinguishes these writers from George R. R. Martin is purpose. Where Tolkien would go onto a tangent about the people living in the shire, those tangents gave a sense of environment and purpose to what embodied the nature of the hobbits. Tolkien had a very subjective way of describing things that gave character and life to a world. I see that in other novels like Terry Pratchett and his Discworld series, although the actual world itself is not very well laid out, his way of telling the story is fun and engaging because of the subjectivity.


In Martin's case, most tangents are detail oriented. I look to the tournaments and feasts as great examples of how you can be detail oriented in a bad direction. Pages and pages are dedicated in detailing names and heraldry and symbols and food names in a way that detracts from the engagement of the reader. They serve no purpose but to paint a picture, but that picture lacks life and meaning.

We can say that Wheel of Time definitely degenerated into a massive web of names and details further along with the books and I can not argue with you there. For me, I feel that a lot of Fantasy books are lacking. When I was younger, I was wrapped up in the Dragonlance novels, the Dragonriders of Pern, but looking back, I do not find them to appealing in any way.

Fantasy books are lacking in a way that most novels are lacking. I enjoy the allure of storytelling that reflect that of verbal storytelling. I like to feel the narrator's spirit and intentions.

I guess I just disagree. The characters are great, and in both Martin and Jordan's case, the detailed descriptions are just fleshing out the world and building a fantastical setting. These are fantasy novels where the descriptions of these alternate worlds and such are necessary for the reader to grasp where they are, and possibly also an alluring quality for those who like the fantasy genre. So it boils down to that you just don't really care for the fantasy genre.

[BogusMeatFactory]

I guess I just disagree. The characters are great, and in both Martin and Jordan's case, the detailed descriptions are just fleshing out the world and building a fantastical setting. These are fantasy novels where the descriptions of these alternate worlds and such are necessary for the reader to grasp where they are, and possibly also an alluring quality for those who like the fantasy genre. So it boils down to that you just don't really care for the fantasy genre.

I won't disagree with some of the characters in Game of Thrones, more so in the books than the tv show, but for ever interesting character there are 50 throwaway names and characters. You are right that description of the world is essential and in a lot of places, his descriptions are good. Descriptions of the Veil and the Wall and Vaes Dothrak are all very intriguing and evoking some imagination.

Maybe I don't like fantasy any more. I never really thought of that as a possibility. I do feel that a lot of fantasy authors focus almost entirely on the world and that is a problem. You can have a fantastical world, but I do get tired of the fish out of water way to introduce those characters. For instance,

Tyrion introduced to the Veil, Dany introduced to the whole Dothraki culture.

I always felt that if you presented it in a more subtle manner, the reader can be engaged in it more. The whole, "We made it big and we made it craaaazzzyyyyy and we presented it to a person who is just like you!" is a cheap move.

I am not saying Game of Thrones is bad...I really want to stress that...nor do I think people are wrong for liking it and the TV show. I am enjoying the books...I really am, but there are moments that I just kind of groan and have to trudge through to continue and for me that dampers the experience.

I'm not trying to fight! Honest!

[Jmustang1968]

I guess I just disagree. The characters are great, and in both Martin and Jordan's case, the detailed descriptions are just fleshing out the world and building a fantastical setting. These are fantasy novels where the descriptions of these alternate worlds and such are necessary for the reader to grasp where they are, and possibly also an alluring quality for those who like the fantasy genre. So it boils down to that you just don't really care for the fantasy genre.

I won't disagree with some of the characters in Game of Thrones, more so in the books than the tv show, but for ever interesting character there are 50 throwaway names and characters. You are right that description of the world is essential and in a lot of places, his descriptions are good. Descriptions of the Veil and the Wall and Vaes Dothrak are all very intriguing and evoking some imagination.

Maybe I don't like fantasy any more. I never really thought of that as a possibility. I do feel that a lot of fantasy authors focus almost entirely on the world and that is a problem. You can have a fantastical world, but I do get tired of the fish out of water way to introduce those characters. For instance,

Tyrion introduced to the Veil, Dany introduced to the whole Dothraki culture.

I always felt that if you presented it in a more subtle manner, the reader can be engaged in it more. The whole, "We made it big and we made it craaaazzzyyyyy and we presented it to a person who is just like you!" is a cheap move.

I am not saying Game of Thrones is bad...I really want to stress that...nor do I think people are wrong for liking it and the TV show. I am enjoying the books...I really am, but there are moments that I just kind of groan and have to trudge through to continue and for me that dampers the experience.

I'm not trying to fight! Honest!

No fighting. I enjoy discussion and debate as long as it is kept respectful, which is obviously is here. Too often I feel people take things too personally or get angry in the midst of debate. One is also free to like or dislike what they please, and Martin, while great, isn't without his flaws obviously. So, when someone says they don't enjoy it, or not for them, then hey you can't please everyone. But when someone says something isn't good or the writing is poor, that is open for debate

[BogusMeatFactory]

No fighting. I enjoy discussion and debate as long as it is kept respectful, which is obviously is here. Too often I feel people take things too personally or get angry in the midst of debate. One is also free to like or dislike what they please, and Martin, while great, isn't without his flaws obviously. So, when someone says they don't enjoy it, or not for them, then hey you can't please everyone. But when someone says something isn't good or the writing is poor, that is open for debate

Yeah I would stress that not every bit of his writing is poor, just in particular sections things start to degrade. Also, hooray for happy discussion on the internet!!!!

[dsheinem]

ah, i thought the criticism was of the show as an example of poor witing for the TV fantasy genre. On that score, consensus is that it is better than anything that's ever been on the small screen.

Arguing the comparative merit of Martin's books in the literary world (and this literary genre) is a completly different discussion, it seems.

[Gamerforlife]

Oh geez, this topic got way too serious and nerdy.

[dsheinem]

[Jmustang1968]

Oh geez, this topic got way too serious and nerdy.

Too nerdy?

[RCBH928]

What do people exactly mean by saying something has a "good" or "bad" writing?

[aaron]

ugh. too soon.

haven't been this mad about a character death since Ned Stark