The Case for Reparations

[dsheinem]

Lots of conclusions are jumped to in those stats and your statements. I also see a lot of correlation and not necessarily causation. Im not saying some institutionalized racism doesnt exist, but some of those correlations seem tenuous, such as the neighborhood/housing.

Blacks are perhaps choosing to live in the less expensive neighborhoods. Why? And why is the automatic and all encompassing answer or reason racism? I think there are so many factors involved and just saying racism is an easy way out or lazy approach.

Did you read the essay?

Most of it is about how racism-informed predatory housing practices today and in the past have been one of, if not the biggest, contributor to black poverty and the inability to escape all the problems it entails. Coates does give lots of other reasons as well, but the housing/neighborhood thing is his jumping off point, well-researched and documented, and central to understanding his arguments.

I don't know that the "correlation not causation" argument really holds much sway as a response to Coates' argument (of which I only excerpted a small few paragraphs as an example). I think it is fair to say that causes of problems he identifies are multiple, but he argues pretty convincingly that they mostly grow out of a history formal and informal racism.

[dsheinem]

Basically, his argument proceeds:

.....

1. Historically, there has been tremendous discrimination against African-Americans, and some of this discrimination persists today.
2. African-Americans are currently more likely to live in poverty.
3. Accordingly, historical discrimination against African Americans causes more African-Americans to live in poverty today.

.....

The third statement does not necessarily follow from the first two, however, and the author failes to connect how historical discrimination against African Americans causes a large percentage of them to live in poverty today.

I agree that the title is a bit of editorial embellishment for the sake of views, but he explains his thinking a little bit here:

This paragraph, in particular, got me:

Others take issue with the exam on philosophical grounds. “You shouldn’t have to prep Sunday to Sunday, to get into a good high school,” said Melissa Santana, a legal secretary whose daughter Dejanellie Falette has been prepping this fall for the exam. “That’s extreme.”

I was stewing reading this. It offended some of my latent nationalism—the basic sense that you want everyone on your "team" to go out there and fight. But as I thought about it I felt that there was something underneath the mother's point. In fact there are people who don't "have to prep Sunday to Sunday, to get into a good high school." But they tend to live in neighborhoods that have historically excluded children with names like Dejanellie. Why is that? Housing policy. What are the roots of our housing policy? White supremacy. What are the roots of white supremacy in America? Justification for enslavement.

I think the history of housing policy - including the FHA's complicity in the very recent predatory subprime mortgage stuff - is the link between "past discrimination" and "contemporary poverty".

[Jmustang1968]

You can get a mortgage online now.

I do acknowledge that there has been a belief or mindset that black or minority neighborhoods have lower perceived property value and thus equity. I still disagree it is that cut and dry.

I also think Texas cities, and perhaps other southern cities defy this theory some as property is a lot cheaper and thus more inclusive here. I fit the demographic he listed of white middle class, and live in a neighborhood with a very mixed ethnic makeup. I would say a fairly even distribution of blacks, whites, and hispanics/South Americans. This is fairly common all across Houston area suburbs. I do think this is not the case as much in northern or western cities where property is more expensive. I am basing this somewhat off of another article and stats I have read recently that supported this

[prfsnl_gmr]

I think the history of housing policy - including the FHA's complicity in the very recent predatory subprime mortgage stuff - is the link between "past discrimination" and "contemporary poverty".

I am enjoying this debate, but I actually have to get some work done today!

Certainly, historical housing policy played a large role in creating segregated neighborhoods. Current housing policies are non-discriminatory, however, and the penalties for discriminating on the basis of race with regard to housing are draconian to say the least. Moreover, anecdotes regarding sub-prime mortgage services targeted to minority communities generally omit the larger context of the mortgage lending industry at the time. (That is, many people who received sub-prime mortgage loans - including African Americans - would not qualify for any other type of financing and certainly would not qualify for any type of financing today. Accordingly, the choice available to them at the time was between sub-prime financing or no financing at all. Today, there is no choice, and I am not sure the current situation is necessarily better.)

In the end, I think that it will be a long time before we see more integrated neighborhoods. Anti-poverty measures based on race may hasten this change, but the author does not make a convincing case that they will hasten it any more than generally applicable policies.

[dsheinem]

You can get a mortgage online now.

Again, have you read it?

He deals with recent lawsuits for discriminatory mortgages, race-based predatory efforts by banks, etc. This all happened, in part, online.

I do acknowledge that there has been a belief or mindset that black or minority neighborhoods have lower perceived property value and thus equity. I still disagree it is that cut and dry.

It isn't that cut and dry, there's a lot of history here which he digs into rather than glosses over.

I also think Texas cities, and perhaps other southern cities defy this theory some as property is a lot cheaper and thus more inclusive here. I fit the demographic he listed of white middle class, and live in a neighborhood with a very mixed ethnic makeup. I would say a fairly even distribution of blacks, whites, and hispanics/South Americans. This is fairly common all across Houston area suburbs. I do think this is not the case as much in northern or western cities where property is more expensive. I am basing this somewhat off of another article and stats I have read recently that supported this

I don't doubt that the history of redlining is worse in Chicago than Houston and overall worse in the north than the south (especially since it was largely instituted in response to black relocation). But I also have no doubt that Houston still deals with its legacy in ways that correlate to contemporary stats about race and poverty.

Related essay: http://www.theatlantic.com/business/arc ... od/371439/

The point is: the racist policies TNC explores in Chicago were everywhere.

Here was a recent conference addressing this legacy in Houston, specifically: http://www.invisiblehouston.com/abts.html

EDIT: Cool! That conference has video posted on the panels: http://www.ustream.tv/channel/invisible ... -revisited

[Jmustang1968]

I have read some but not all yet.

[J T]

I just read an article by Greenwald and Pettigrew that most discrimination is caused by in-group favoritism rather than out-group hostility. I think that is important evidence to keep in mind for this topic.

http://www.washington.edu/news/2014/05/ ... professor/

[MrPopo]

I can't help but think of this PSA when I hear about housing discrimination.

[dsheinem]

I just read an article by Greenwald and Pettigrew that most discrimination is caused by in-group favoritism rather than out-group hostility. I think that is important evidence to keep in mind for this topic.

http://www.washington.edu/news/2014/05/ ... professor/

That largely correlates with Coates' essay, which suggests that the biggest root problem has more to do with a history of belief about white supremacy and "protecting our own" than it does with vile-spewing racists (though there's plenty of that, too). A big part of his argument is that white supremacy, as a founding ideology of the US and of the West in general, has largely gone unexamined.

[Ack]

Having read the article, I would say it is definitely in favor of reparations, regardless of knowing what those reparations may end up being. From what I can tell, Coates' argument is that, no matter what, America must rectify in some way with the African American community, possibly through direct payouts, possibly through some other indirect method, but the very fabric of America must change, intentionally to benefit what are currently minorities, but also potentially to hold back the "majority."

Reparations worry me, largely because I worry that people will use them as a retaliatory measure more so than any attempt to actually rectify a past issue. Let's be honest, fear is the primary motivator against such a response: fear of losing power, fear of eventual subjugation, and fear of eventual annihilation(which is the same fear that has often gripped America in response to waves of immigration). As terrible as it sounds, these fears are not entirely unfounded either: examples of cases like Nat Turner's rebellion or violence advocated by the more radical elements of the Black Panther Party have helped fuel this, though more importantly the end of slavery in Haiti has likely had the greatest impact on America's beliefs of equality.

Haiti is a special case, certainly. The Black slaves of Haiti were freed in post a revolutionary France but reenslaved by Napolean and entered open rebellion in response. The French inevitably lost and organized a peace treaty in which the now-free Haitians would treat wounded French soldiers and then send them home. Instead, the Haitians loaded the French onto boats and dped them into the ocean to drown in a final act of genocide. The end result in America was the end of a concrete abolitionist movement within the South.

Let's face it: I believe in the American ideals of freedom and equality, and yes, the treatment of African Americans is both shameful and humiliating, and has most definitely lead to the problems we have now as our economy suffers and some of our most vital cities slide into ruin. Andt perhaps we should at the very least study reparations. But coming to an honest reckoning on the issue will take consideration for all sides on the issue, including the "white majority" which Coates does point to as the villain in the equation. Will a government examination of the issue actually allow for this, will it deny it, or will it overinflate it to the point of rendering the conversation moot? Perhaps we should at least consider the contents of the bill.