POLL: Bootlegs / Reproductions: What is allowed

[aaron]

also i'd think that dreamcast boots would be easy to verify simply by looking at the bottom of the disc. also not the same thing.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/slippery-slope

??? What is different on my Last Hope disc than an official DC game?

i don't have any unofficial DC games but do they look like this on the bottom, like a GD-ROM? :

[Hobie-wan]

also this is pretty funny and sorta relevant:

http://www.assemblergames.com/forums/sh ... mcast-game

Heh, and obviously a CDR due to the way it is printed on the white surface and the serial numbers in the clear portion of the center.

Last hope is on a CDR with code that bypasses the security, just like any other self booting disc you would burn. Real games are on GD-Rs

Are you sure about that? I don't have Last Hope, but I'm pretty sure they're on real pressed CDs. I would certainly be pissed about paying the price those sold for and only getting a fragile CDR. I think you're misunderstanding how DC boot stuff works. The commercially available boot discs for DC aren't CDRs and Sega sure as hell didn't give access to GDRom production facilities to make them.

[mjmjr25]

What are you seeing in this listing that tells you this game isn't an official release? So it's certainly possible to make something look original and load / play as original. Do we need to ask for macro shots of the disc ring on DC games now?

Replace inhabitants art with Project Justice copied art and you have a game that looks and plays like an original; right down to the artwork, manual, and disc-art -you won't be able to tell it's a boot until you inspect some tiny / holographic letters.

The point is it's more than possible likely - where is the slippery slope? MVS wasn't bootlegged until it was. Atomiswave wasn't bootlegged until it was. SNES wasn't bootlegged until it was. Mega Drive wasn't bootlegged until it was. Kaneko Supernova wasn't bootlegged until it was. Sega NAOMI wasn't bootlegged until it was (just in the last 6 months). NES wasn't bootlegged until it was. Famicom wasn't bootlegged until it was. But yeah, they probably won't bootleg N64, DC, and SAT, that's jumping to conclusions.

[MrPopo]

Replace inhabitants art with Project Justice copied art and you have a game that looks and plays like an original; right down to the artwork, manual, and disc-art -you won't be able to tell it's a boot until you inspect some tiny / holographic letters.

Unless you're collecting for value, what's the downside here?

[mjmjr25]

Replace inhabitants art with Project Justice copied art and you have a game that looks and plays like an original; right down to the artwork, manual, and disc-art -you won't be able to tell it's a boot until you inspect some tiny / holographic letters.

Unless you're collecting for value, what's the downside here?

The downside is:
*many boots don't show any issues with play at the start, down the line they develop.
*If I don't know i'm buying a bootleg, but find out when I go to sell it, i'm either going to take less money selling a boot (plus I can't use paypal as paypal does not allow sale of bootlegged materials) or i'm not going to even realize it until I sell it and i'm going to unwittingly sell it to someone else who does realize it - which will cause additional problems.

Here's a better question - if the only purpose is to play the game for cheap on original hardware, why is there opposition to putting the word "reproduction" or "bootleg" somewhere on the artwork?

[dsheinem]

If I don't know i'm buying a bootleg, but find out when I go to sell it...or unwittingly sell it to someone else who does realize it

Then it is your fault for not inspecting it closely when buying or selling it.

And really, would some rule saying "bootlegs aren't allowed" at the place where it is being sold give you adequate peace of mind to just not worry about "tire kicking"?

[mjmjr25]

Then it is your fault for not inspecting it closely when buying or selling it.

And really, would some rule saying "bootlegs aren't allowed" at the place where it is being sold give you adequate peace of mind to just not worry about "tire kicking"?

Are you telling me you inspect every game you purchase?

What about estarland? You buy from them - how do you inspect those games? - i've got 2 issues with them right now and probably won't be buying from them in the future because of them, and one of them is likely not their fault (bootleg AES game, obvious to me, doubtful they had any clue - difficult return in process). So yeah, any rules that make it easier to buy here are good rules seeing as pretty much any online store is out now for me when it comes to SNES / NES / AES / MD / Atomis.

It was your idea to have the top 25 bst'ers chime in and one after another they chime in that option 4 or 5 would be their preference - why is that carrying no weight with you? You seem to take any rule change as a personal affront as you helped shape the original rules. This isn't an affront - it's a way to make our community a bit safer marketplace. The problem isn't rampant, i'm not pretending it is - but it is a problem and as other communities force these items out, more and more people will turn here in time to take advantage of our lax rules.

[Luke]

After 23 pages and nearly 70% of votes made for option #2, isn't this thread becoming a bit silly?

Label them as repros, ban those who scam, move on.

[dsheinem]

Are you telling me you inspect every game you purchase?

If it was a pricey cart game for a system that gets booted? Yes, I'd inspect it. I'd also consider the source. If it came from you, I'd trust that it was good and that you'd likely checked it out first.

What about estarland? You buy from them - how do you inspect those games? - i've got 2 issues with them right now and probably won't be buying from them in the future because of them, and one of them is likely not their fault (bootleg AES game, obvious to me, doubtful they had any clue - difficult return in process). So yeah, any rules that make it easier to buy here are good rules seeing as pretty much any online store is out now for me when it comes to SNES / NES / AES / MD / Atomis.

I inspect them by looking at things like the quality of the label, evidence of cart tampering, etc. I also haven't bought anything expensive from them, but I'd probably be quite meticulous in my inspection if I did.

It was your idea to have the top 25 bst'ers chime in and one after another they chime in that option 4 or 5 would be their preference - why is that carrying no weight with you?

It doesn't "carry no weight" - it was my suggestion to poll the top 25 if the poll results were inconclusive, which they aren't. The top 25 who have posted here might lean a little bit more towards option 4 or 5, but most haven't weighed in and there's a fair amount who don't want to see any rule changes.

You seem to take any rule change as a personal affront as you helped shape the original rules. This isn't an affront - it's a way to make our community a bit safer marketplace.

I did help shape them and am proud of that, as I am of the fact that we have a quantitative feedback system. I'm not suggesting that there's no room for improvement of rules, and I am of course open to discussion of revision when it seems merited.

That said, frankly the rules we have work really well and have for a long time - there are really very minimal problems here with con artists or bad dealings compared to most other boards I've seen. Likewise there are no instances that I can recall of someone buying/selling bootlegs without knowing what they were doing. It's a non-issue here, largely because the current rules and guidelines encourage openness. I don't think we need to start making specific kinds of rules about specific kinds of transactions or items (beyond the larger forum rule about "no bootlegs of or links to downloads of recent games" that we've had since forever). I also don't think we need to put a rule in place here primarily because of worry about what might theoretically happen to bootlegs or repros outside of this forum.

[prfsnl_gmr]

After 23 pages and nearly 70% of votes made for option #2, isn't this thread becoming a bit silly?

Label them as repros, ban those who scam, move on.

This thread has been interesting, but as someone who regularly conducts transactions through this forum - and as someone who voted for option #2 - I also think the conversation has dragged on a bit.