POLL: Bootlegs / Reproductions: What is allowed

[Hobie-wan]

Lets be honest it isnt like your going to find these fakes at garage sales.

I've seen assorted bootlegs at the flea market, accidentally bought a GBA bootleg of Pocky & Rocky with Becky at Gamestop (as well as seeing other GBA fakes there), and have seen fake PS1 games at garage sales. Heck, I saw a repro of Bubble Bath Babes in a US grey cart that the label was trying to look like a licensed US game at one of the local game stores just 2 weeks ago. Flea markets and thrift stores almost always have the bootleg Famiclones that look like other systems and come with a multi cart here, or at least orphaned controllers and guns from them if not a TV with Contra playing. If I lived near New York or LA where imported things enter the country in bulk I imagine I'd see them pretty often.

[aaron]

Not a clue how you got that out of my post.

i'm not serious, mate.

[mjmjr25]

@CRT - pray tell how you are going to open a Mega Drive or AES cart for inspection? They are near impossilbe to open with damaging the cart / label - buying for both of those libraries takes a lot of trust in the seller, you won't find an AES seller willing to open up their valuable cart to confirm it's original - opening it can be a thousands of dollars risk. This is why these 2 libraries are so heavily bootlegged.

At some point every game changes hands and rarely is the full provenance of that game discussed. It is entirely possible you have unknown bootlegs in your collection - a great many of us do.

The question was raised by me to the moderators - seeing the open buying and selling of games that in my opinion are dangerous to our shared hobby being bought and sold with no checks and balances. I of course am not judge and jury so the idea was to run my concern (share by some, but not all mods) by the community for feedback.

[dedalusdedalus]

I've seen assorted bootlegs at the flea market, accidentally bought a GBA bootleg of Pocky & Rocky with Becky at Gamestop (as well as seeing other GBA fakes there), and have seen fake PS1 games at garage sales. Heck, I saw a repro of Bubble Bath Babes in a US grey cart that the label was trying to look like a licensed US game at one of the local game stores just 2 weeks ago.

This is a great point. I can also attest to seeing bootlegs outside internet sales. I've seen Gamestop carrying a bootleg Final Fantasy VI Advance, I've seen bootleg GBA carts crop up on Craigslist, and I've even seen a "freaked" NAM-1975 AES at Video Games New York.

The reason this is an important distinction is because much of the previous discourse has presumed internet sales. In that case, you pop open the cart, discover it's a bootleg, and you return it. Unless you paid with concealed cash or money order, PayPal or Amazon or your credit card company will cover your funds, but you've been inconvenienced by having to jump through the hoops required for a return: you've got to package it and put it in the mail, you're not always guaranteed reimbursement for return shipping, you bear the risk of the item getting lost in transit pending your return, and your funds have been tied up for duration of the entire process. In my opinion, this scenario is already inconvenience enough to take a strong stance against reproductions, even those that are clearly marked.

In contrast, when the sale takes place outside the internet, a larger percent of transactions don't involve a protected method like PayPal or Credit Card. If you're not able to find out it's a repro before funds change hands, then you're at the mercy of the store's return policy or the integrity of that particular CL/Flea market/swap meet seller.

i'm sure that when Magic Knight Rayearth is booted to look dead-on original, a few more of the folks who voted #2 will change their opinion.

This. Within the group that favors heavier restrictions on repros, I know mjmjr25, foxhound, and I all dabble in AES. Also, regardless of one's opinion of the culture there, NG.com takes perhaps the most robust stance against reproductions out of any video game forum.

I really don't think it's a coincidence that Neo Geo is a common factor here. Once you've seen a particular market get completely infiltrated with bootlegs, you're going to have a very different opinion on the matter.

Maybe we've already crossed that line regarding NES, SNES and Genesis, but that doesn't mean we should just let the situation deteriorate further. It boils down to basic probability: with every bootleg that enters the stream of commerce, the probability that someone will unknowingly buy a bootleg increases.

Think of it as blaming home depot for selling a crowbar that someone buys to rob your home. Or a closer example someone selling a knockoff handbag, then the buyer turns around and sells it to another who thinks they bought a Micheal Kors. Blaming the bar for the drunk drivers behaviors.

Just wanted to point out that the manufacturer of the bootleg handbag would be legally liable under federal trademark law, and the bar may be liable if it violated that state's "dram shop law." Home Depot, on the other hand, would be free and clear of liability regarding the crowbar sale.

Not trying to be a stickler here. I just wanted to highlight that it's really not outlandish to hold parties responsible for downstream effects, as some people here would seem to think.

[bryan_65]

Besides as others pointed out already if an expensive game, then time should be taken to scruntinize the label, cart case or PCB differences before a purchase.

That is not always possible. If I die my wife will sell my shit, and will not be able to help you guys with scans or opening anything, she will be able to say what most people will.

''It looks original and everything plays fine, buy AS IS.''

Most transactions are also on the internet where you can't hold something in person.

Then she shouldn't be selling any carts for high prices. That would be selling a car and saying it looks good and runs fine but I don't know how to open the hood. She would have to sell for "as is" prices. Lets be honest it isnt like your going to find these fakes at garage sales.

Carts were never meant to be opened by the consumer ever.(The car analogy is a bad one, all hoods are meant to be opened by the consumer). I agree she would not get as much money, but should she have them VGA graded?

A lot of sellers would not be willing to scan and open carts, plus like mjmjr25 said some carts you just don't want to risk damage upon opening carts.

I knew even a few years back that I would NEVER find an Eliminate Down I could trust. I have seen more boots then the real thing.

[pepharytheworm]

Think of it as blaming home depot for selling a crowbar that someone buys to rob your home. Or a closer example someone selling a knockoff handbag, then the buyer turns around and sells it to another who thinks they bought a Micheal Kors. Blaming the bar for the drunk drivers behaviors.

Just wanted to point out that the manufacturer of the bootleg handbag would be legally liable under federal trademark law, and the bar may be liable if it violated that state's "dram shop law." Home Depot, on the other hand, would be free and clear of liability regarding the crowbar sale.

Not trying to be a stickler here. I just wanted to highlight that it's really not outlandish to hold parties responsible for downstream effects, as some people here would seem to think.

A good portion of knockoffs look different enough there won't be a federal trademark issue, I mean you can find knockoffs at places like Ross or Kohl's. But my point either way is we aren't going to tell bars or stores to stop selling because someone later on might take advantage of someone.

@hobie
I do find a lot of the reasonings to be sensationalism. How many mods think this is an issue? Reading this thread I can definatly only say one.

[dedalusdedalus]

A good portion of knockoffs look different enough there won't be a federal trademark issue, I mean you can find knockoffs at places like Ross or Kohl's. But my point either way is we aren't going to tell bars or stores to stop selling because someone later on might take advantage of someone.

You're right: we don't stop bars or stores from selling, but we do disincentivize them from engaging in certain behaviors by holding them liable for downstream effects. Likewise, no one here is arguing for an outright ban on repros. Last I checked, pretty much everyone is fine with reproducing multi-carts and unreleased games.

To use ninjainspandex's gun analogy, we don't completely ban the sale of guns, but we do restrict who the guns can be sold to (need to pass background check) and what kinds of guns can be sold (no military-grade weapons). I feel that banning reproductions of commercially released games is more analogous to banning a certain kind of gun, than it is to an outright ban on guns.

I raised federal trademark law to illustrate that, even in the examples you provided, parties were responsible for downstream results of their actions, so I don't want this to turn into an argument about trademark law per se. On a side-note, however, "looking different enough" won't necessarily insulate you from a trademark law violation since the standard for a trademark violation is a multi-factor "likelihood of confusion" analysis, in which appearance is just one of several factors considered.

[oxymoron]

But my point either way is we aren't going to tell bars or stores to stop selling because someone later on might take advantage of someone.

I think you guy's are trying to find a middle ground between morality and capitalism which doesn't exist.

[Aramonde]

@CRT - pray tell how you are going to open a Mega Drive or AES cart for inspection? They are near impossilbe to open with damaging the cart / label - buying for both of those libraries takes a lot of trust in the seller, you won't find an AES seller willing to open up their valuable cart to confirm it's original - opening it can be a thousands of dollars risk. This is why these 2 libraries are so heavily bootlegged.

At some point every game changes hands and rarely is the full provenance of that game discussed. It is entirely possible you have unknown bootlegs in your collection - a great many of us do.

The question was raised by me to the moderators - seeing the open buying and selling of games that in my opinion are dangerous to our shared hobby being bought and sold with no checks and balances. I of course am not judge and jury so the idea was to run my concern (share by some, but not all mods) by the community for feedback.

It's hard to open Megadrive carts? I've never done it but from looking at one it has two screws and it looks like it doesn't open on the label (unless the line im looking at isn't where the cart separates).

[aaron]

It's hard to open Megadrive carts? I've never done it but from looking at one it has two screws and it looks like it doesn't open on the label (unless the line im looking at isn't where the cart separates).

japanese mega drive, not european/US.