Ultimate NES replacement?

[Ziggy]

That's a business idea for you; the stripped down NES that cuts out the things people don't need but the core is still high quality NES goodness.

I've actually thought about it a year or two ago. Well, not a business idea, but just an idea. I was reading conversations on NesDev about why the FC has jailbars with the composite AV mod. A lot of people agreed that it's just poor PCB layout/design. That made me think, well, one could just design a new PCB. It could even be made to incorporate the composite AV mod. The RF section could just be left out. I could find a "project box" that is the perfect size. A lot of project enclosures come with mounts for perf board, the new PCB could be tailored to fit into it and mount perfectly. One would only need to cut holes for the ports. Any parts that are proprietary (the CPU, PPU, whatever) can be taken from a FC. All other parts could be purchased new (might as well use new caps at least). It could be left open ended so that the end user/maker can decide if they want NES or FC (or both) controller ports and other stuff like that. Basically, it would just be a PCB design that any one could use and do it for themselves or build it to sell to some one that can't do it for themselves. I had some more details thought about, but that's it in a nutshell.

It was really just to better design the FC PCB to get rid of interference problems and possible have better shielding (or any shielding at all since the FC doesn't really have any). It would only have composite output, this idea was before there were any (finished) RGB options other than a Play Choice PPU (which isn't an option in my opinion). I suppose that new FPGA thing that polls the PPU for RGB could be incorporated into the idea, the PCB for it doesn't look too big (and possible it could be shrunk).

I just liked the idea because any one with a Famicom could get the PCB, the project box, and a handful of other cheap parts and build it. Well, any one that can solder and whatnot. It would be cheap to do, for each person. If you already own a FC, something like $20-50 as a quick estimate. Best of all, you'd be free to do it however you want. If you can vacuum form a case for it, you could design your own case around exactly what you want. Wanna put a Four Score in it, then do it. Just a Famicom controller port, then do it. Have a NES and/or FC cart slot. Power LEDs, reset button, all optional stuff.

haha this was posted over at NG.com, yes it has been overdone but it actually made me laugh with it's truthiness

Ha, I saw one of those for when they removed the Touch Point thing from the Think Pad. It's hard not to laugh at it, even if it's over the top and exaggerated. I think one of the funniest parts in both videos is when the one women whispers something to the other women out in the hallway.

[christoph]

Apologies for the late response to everyone - it's been a bit crazy the last couple days.

Firstly: on the topic of original CPU / PPUs. What is important to understand is that there are an enormous amount of these systems sitting unsold all over the world. If you know where to look, they are extremely available. Furthermore, we all know that unlike the NES, finding good, clean condition HVC-001 units is difficult. Additionally, the Famicom, unlike the NES, only output RF. These days, it makes them much less desirable. What this all translates to: there are a TON of these units that resellers can't even get rid of.

We were able to find a sizable lot of these unsellable units. Who knows how long they have been sitting there, but I imagine a very long time. The units we are using would never have seen the light of day. We were barely able to salvage a select amount of the controllers from them. Also, remember, combined, the NES and Famicom sold almost 60 million units. Regardless of anything, I would not be worried about not being able to find NES / Famicoms...they are going to be around and readily available for as long as their electronics allow them to continue functioning.

And yes...I have to agree, using an MV1C for a CMVS is the same in my eyes. MV1Cs are sitting on the shelves all over the world, collecting dust. The modifications that go into a CMVS require removing the bios chip and soldering on the board. It's altering and repurposing the original hardware. The reality is that the amount of playtime and love given to any of this hardware that is repurposed, by anyone who builds them, is beyond what would be given to them otherwise.

[christoph]

Secondly: NOS OEM controllers. These are brand new, OEM NES controllers...that is why they are priced at $49. They are not 3rd party. The $29 refurbished controllers are disassembled, cleaned and a replacement NES cable installed. They are tested and *guaranteed*. They're actually more work than it's worth to be honest. We only offer them because I'm not a fan of 3rd party controllers and I want everyone to have a proper controller. We're almost sold out of every controller already...so I may have to put some 3rd party controllers up.

We actually designed a brand new NES controller. It's been completely done and ready to be produced for months. It's just too damn expensive to produce it right. Even out of plastic.

Either way, I did consider including a 3rd party controller with every unit...we could easily do this, again, I'm just not a fan of 3rd party controllers. But I could certainly reconsider if it means a lot to everybody.

Thirdly: Cables. We chose to include the Composite / S-Video cable as its a basic essential. This means that nobody will get their system and be unable to plug it in. A component cable costs roughly the same to produce, so it's not a matter of costs - just that we wanted to include a cable that everybody, anywhere would be able to use. Either way, I totally understand that the majority of people are going to want to use the best video output - but it's going to be different for everybody, depending on their setup. Again, I'd certainly reconsider if it means a lot to everybody.

The $29 price tag for cables is the same as our CMVS cables. It's just not cheap to produce cables in relatively low quantities. We're not producing 20,000 cables here.

Our HDMI Adapter is a custom developed RGB > HDMI scaler with a built in scanline generator. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure the cheapest option available with this feature is a GBS8200 + SLG3000 for $150 +. Then there is the Framemeister for $390 or so.

We worked very hard to include it into the unit, but when it came down to it.. we would've had to raise the price. We decided to keep it separate and sell it at more or less cost so that anyone who didn't want the adapter (only playing on CRTs, PVMs etc) didn't have to eat the extra costs.

Trust me, the $49 is more than worth it. For what it costs us and relative to whats on the market...it's an absolute steal.

Anyways, I appreciate everybody's thoughts and feedback.

[ninjainspandex]

Thirdly: Cables. We chose to include the Composite / S-Video cable as its a basic essential. This means that nobody will get their system and be unable to plug it in. A component cable costs roughly the same to produce, so it's not a matter of costs - just that we wanted to include a cable that everybody, anywhere would be able to use. Either way, I totally understand that the majority of people are going to want to use the best video output - but it's going to be different for everybody, depending on their setup. Again, I'd certainly reconsider if it means a lot to everybody.

I understand this Chris but do you really think people are going to spend this kind of money and only use composite or s-video? Why not add a an option of what cable you want included when you check out? Also why not have jacks on the back or use the Nintendo AV input, those have been reproduced and people could provide their own cables if they so choose. Or do you feel the need to force people to buy your cables?

Also are you done with your CMVS? It is no longer offered on your website I assume you must of ran out of MV-1C boards by now.

[mjmjr25]

My frustration Chris is that you hinted at having done something that was going to surprise us and essentially dodged the question from day one about the CPU / PPU. Had you said what you are saying now from day 1 - there would be much less frustration. As a friend of mine and someone vocally supporting you in various places and in PM - I assured folks you wouldn't be saccing originals and if you were, you would've just said so rather than ambiguity and the promise of the dramatic and clear differences when replying to Skips, broken and JibbaJabba. It wasn't different at all - it was EXACTLY what Skips and broken suggested. Disappointed.

The 4th time Skips asked if you were using original CPU/PPU and pointed out that saying it had stereo was misleading; you said, "There is absolutely nothing to 'hide' or 'false advertising' whatsoever. Every aspect will be completely transparent and clear. I mean, its kind of offensive to make assumptions like that. I'm not sure where that is coming from." Again - the assumption was spot on. It was at this time I was messaging friends how legit this was going to be and that there is no way you would have made that statement if in fact you were using sacced CPU/PPU. I just don't understand why you didn't say it from the get go. Again, just really disappointed in the way you handled this publicly. If you aren't ashamed of it - why not answer the question day 1? The ambiguity and veiled denials and promises of people being amazed once we saw what you did...I just don't get it

Also, and this is hopefully well taken criticism as I still consider you a good forum friend - but you made a point to not only say it would be cheaper than the CMVS's, but you said and "not marginally so". In fact, this is only marginally less than the CMVS.

You also mentioned you would "get a unit in the hands" of MANY members in the neo thread, only to later say you would only be able to get out 1-2 test units.

It's probably a cool product, but I can't endorse it any way after the way it was handled. Sucks :/

[christoph]

I understand this Chris but do you really think people are going to spend this kind of money and only use composite or s-video? Why not add a an option of what cable you want included when you check out? Also why not have jacks on the back or use the Nintendo AV input, those have been reproduced and people could provide their own cables if they so choose. Or do you feel the need to force people to buy your cables?

Also are you done with your CMVS? It is no longer offered on your website I assume you must of ran out of MV-1C boards by now.

I think that everyone who buys a system is going to get a different cable depending on what they want to use it with and where they are in the world.

Nintendo AV output is proprietary, and I'm against universal jacks as a personal preference. It had to be a proprietary just because of the sheer amount of pins required for all the AV outputs!

Seriously though, If anyone wants to swap the "base" cable with *any* other custom cable of their choice, I'd be happy to. No problem whatsoever. Email me or upon checkout, put it in the notes section and It'll ship with whatever cable you'd note.

The CMVS and sticks will be back up this month - just didn't have time to get it put up yet!

[christoph]

My frustration Chris is that you hinted at having done something that was going to surprise us and essentially dodged the question from day one about the CPU / PPU. Had you said what you are saying now from day 1 - there would be much less frustration. As a friend of mine and someone vocally supporting you in various places and in PM - I assured folks you wouldn't be saccing originals and if you were, you would've just said so rather than ambiguity and the promise of the dramatic and clear differences when replying to Skips, broken and JibbaJabba. It wasn't different at all - it was EXACTLY what Skips and broken suggested. Disappointed.

The 4th time Skips asked if you were using original CPU/PPU and pointed out that saying it had stereo was misleading; you said, "There is absolutely nothing to 'hide' or 'false advertising' whatsoever. Every aspect will be completely transparent and clear. I mean, its kind of offensive to make assumptions like that. I'm not sure where that is coming from." Again - the assumption was spot on. It was at this time I was messaging friends how legit this was going to be and that there is no way you would have made that statement if in fact you were using sacced CPU/PPU. I just don't understand why you didn't say it from the get go. Again, just really disappointed in the way you handled this publicly. If you aren't ashamed of it - why not answer the question day 1? The ambiguity and veiled denials and promises of people being amazed once we saw what you did...I just don't get it

Also, and this is hopefully well taken criticism as I still consider you a good forum friend - but you made a point to not only say it would be cheaper than the CMVS's, but you said and "not marginally so". In fact, this is only marginally less than the CMVS.

You also mentioned you would "get a unit in the hands" of MANY members in the neo thread, only to later say you would only be able to get out 1-2 test units.

It's probably a cool product, but I can't endorse it any way after the way it was handled. Sucks :/

Again, the thing to note is that, no where in person, or on any forum...are there people acting like this...except the Neo forums. It's the nature of the forums. Doesn't everyone in the retro community know better than this by now? Defamation and vilification is entertainment...I mean, read through the thread and think for yourself. It's the same 6-7 people...every time. Everybody else who chimes in against the mob gets slammed down and bullied into submission. It seems like every month a person or a topic is chosen to treat the same way.

It was a teaser. We weren't ready to put out all the information. It was as simple as that. We were not *hiding* information that was then going to be released anyways. How could that ever make sense. The reality is that a small handful of people warranted harassment and demanded every detail well before the product was even released. Claiming that we mislead about stereo, before the product was even fully released and any money had exchanged hands...that is just absurd. The entire thing is absurd. There isn't a single piece of misleading information anywhere. I fail to see where any assumption was spot on. The entire thing, is so irrational...it's actually ungraspable to me.

In regards to the price: While I realize it is still not cheap, I do think that $649 to $499 is a serious price different. We worked unbelievably hard to get it down just that low.

Beta units: I would've happily sent beta units to Skips and Broken on the Neo forums. But these guys aren't interested in the Nt - they're interested in classic, unjustified neo forums bashing. It really is a shame, again, because there are so many good people on those forums and only a very few who ruin it for everybody.

With that said - of course were still gonna send out beta units!! We've been working on this system full time for almost a year. The only thing I want is to get it into peoples hands and see what they think. I'd love to do one on Racketboy, Shmups, Nintendoage etc.

Ultimately, although putting out a teaser with limited information successfully served its purpose in every other way, I'm not dense, and maybe on forums it's irritating. Noted. Won't happen again. I'm not here to piss any body off. I'm here because I love retro games and I want to make great things.

I have absolutely no problem with criticism. I love to hear everyone's thoughts as it only allows me to do a better job and/or amend any oversight.

[christoph]

And of course Mike, we'll always be homies. I respect any reasonable difference of opinion, s'all good.

Though...I still hope you'll let me show you an Nt...because I think it'll blow your mind...

[ninjainspandex]

No hard feelings Chris I hope I you didn't think I was criticizing you personally, your a good dude and have helped me out a lot. Thank you My biggest complaint is about the design and the price, it looks nothing like an NES, your CMVS was a work of art and looked just like an AES made out of wood. The NT just looks like a shiny cable box, does have a lot of cool features though but it is a bit more than I would be willing to pay for the NES. I think I'll be getting my toploader modded for rgb and expanded audio. Btw is this why Viletim has been sold out of RGB PPUs?

[Ziggy]

Where is the power and reset buttons? I only see that one red button on the back of the console.